Incorruptable amputations

[Margarite]

[quote]in regards to cuttin up incorruptibles for relics.. I don't have a problem wth it. the body is more than just some empty tool that we abandon, and thus there is a special intercessory value to the presence of an actual piece of the saint's body. why shouldn't more people be able to be in the presence of the saint's body. now, does the incurruptability actually stay with the amputated part? but even if it doesn't I don't have a problem. the incurruptability is just a little miracle, it's not like if you send out parts as relics it won't still be rebuildable. [/quote]

See, this is the reason why I asked. I wanted to know why it was okay to do so. Thank you, it does make sense if the parts of the body are taken as objects of intercessory value.

Yes, the incorruptibility does remain with the amputated part. The Incorruptibles by Joan Carroll Cruz is a fascinating book, I recomend it to everyone. The book also says that this miracle hasn't been recorded anywhere else but within the catholic church.

[Margarite]

[quote]When our body is glorified at the end of time, yes we will regain all the supernatural goods lost by sin, but we will also gain a share in God's divinity, being joined to him by the Son in an infinitely more glorious state than our ancestors could have hoped to experience. [/quote]

[quote]a glorified body is basically restored to the state we were in before the fall.. not only perfect nature and full control of mind and spirit over all passions of the flesh, but also an eternal supernatural elevation above human nature enabling us to experience thebeatific vision and participate in the divine life of the trinity.
[/quote]

Do you really think it would be physically different than Adam and Eve? I would have thought that the difference would be in whether the soul attained purity and therefore if put in the same situation as Adam and Eve, it would be stronger to resist temptation.

I'm under the impression that the ressurection of the body is a reward and thus the soul would have the ability to experience events through the senses and enjoy pleasure, feel emotions and such. The Soul, however, would be strong enough to withstand, or overcome all the waknesses of the body.

I'm suggesting that the glorified body would be glorious in its immitation of Jesus's life.

[quote]We do know however that at the end of time, whenever that is, we will ALL receive our immortal bodies, saints and sinners alike. Some of us will live with those bodies in heaven in perpetual glory with the Most Holy Trinity (the glorified body), and some of us will take our immortal bodies with us into hell (the damned body).
[/quote]


To have a physical body in Hell, that is a scary thought. I think about this a lot since I read St. Teresa of Avila's autobiography. She described a vision she had of being in Hell and how at the begining of her spirutal journey she used to pray out of fear of going to Hell instead of praying out of love for God.

[philothea]

I think that a glorified body is substantially different from a perfect natural one. No procreative organs. No ability to suffer pain or sorrow. No passions. Ability to see God and not die. More things I'm not coming up with because it's late.

This only my personal analogy, but I think of our current bodies as seeds, and our glorified bodies as what comes from them. What we do now effects what we will become later, but not in a direct or obvious way. Like you can't predict an oak tree from an acorn.

Just a thought.

[Margarite]

Beautiful analogy.......I'll take it. It makes sense. We are a seed of what we can become, but I still think that the body would be able to feel, for the most part joy in the communion with God. What would be the reason of having a body if it would change its anture? It would probably have said that a new body would ressucitate. I don't think there would be changes it its molecular structure, I thing that the changes would be spiritual.

Edited May 9, 2005 by Margarite

[Aloysius]

before the fall not only did man have a perfect nature, but he was elevated supernaturally by God. we fell down from the supernature even further down below our nature

pre-fall man walked in God's presence, there was a supernatural elevation.

basically speaking, glorifying our bodies is returning us to that state before the fall, because that state WAS elevated, we WERE in God's presnece, however this time we will enter into eternity this way. I was not saying we would be merely natural... in fact I don't believe man ever was in a simply perfect natural state... before the fall we were elevated supernaturally, after the fall we had a fallen nature, and we will have a glorified nature on the day of ressurection

It's not an exact return to before the fall, but we can look to what we know of how man was before the fall to help to understand what we will be like after glorification

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 01:05 AM'] basically speaking, glorifying our bodies is returning us to that state before the fall, because that state WAS elevated, we WERE in God's presnece, however this time we will enter into eternity this way. [/quote]
But this is not quite correct. Before the fall we were in a state of 'Original Innocence' without knowledge of good and evil. After Adam's first sin of disobedience, we gained knowledge of good and evil and we will forever keep that knowledge. The difference is that when we enter into eternity, we will be completely [i]free[/i] to choose only the good, rather than being a slave to sin. With this knowledge of good and evil and the freedom of will to choose purely the good, we are closer to God than Adam and Eve were.

In addition, at Christ's ascension he introduced humanity [i]into[/i] the very Godhead, making us an [i]integral part [/i]of the divine person, of which Adam and Eve never partook. The Church teaches that we will actually become a [i]part of[/i] God's very life, rather than simply living in "happiness" with God as Adam and Eve did.

[Aloysius]

again, I am simply comparing the state of the bodies. a glorified body is basically restored to the supernatural level it had been elevated to before the fall with the mind and spirit holding full control over all passions of the flesh. the sin of disobedience was that much greater because Adam and Eve had full control over all their passions.. we're talking absolute culpability. anyway, yes we will be freed from temptation and sin completely

[scardella]

[quote name='Margarite' date='May 8 2005, 09:25 PM'] What happens to those that have been cremated? [/quote]
I'd like to think God re-forms the body, a la Adam being formed out of the dust.
"From dust you came..."

[Aloysius]

symbolism-wise the Church prefers you not to have yourself cremated. the only reason to do such a thing is money or some other reason.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 10:09 AM'] again, I am simply comparing the state of the bodies. a glorified body is basically restored to the supernatural level it had been elevated to before the fall with the mind and spirit holding full control over all passions of the flesh. the sin of disobedience was that much greater because Adam and Eve had full control over all their passions.. we're talking absolute culpability. anyway, yes we will be freed from temptation and sin completely [/quote]
Umm didnt Christ have a glorified body after His ressurection? Wasnt that glorified body able to walk through walls, not need food, etc....? Such some thoughts. If Christ's body is a resemblance of what our glorified bodies will be, then we will be just a tad bit more than the state before original sin.

[Aloysius]

I'm not so sure He walked through the wall... he entered into the locked room. how did he do it? no one's telling, but He's God so He can do anything. He very likely just opened the locked door, walked in, and shut it leaving it locked behind him... just the mysterious way all Creation bends to the will of the creator.

the bodies will have perfect nature and be supernaturally elevated just like Adam and Eve were before the fall. that doesn't mean x-ray vision and flying and walking thorugh walls though, we're not from Krypton

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 10:09 AM'] again, I am simply comparing the state of the bodies. a glorified body is basically restored to the supernatural level it had been elevated to before the fall with the mind and spirit holding full control over all passions of the flesh. [/quote]
Once again, you're failing to make a distinction. The glorified body will not be the same kind of body Adam and Eve had. Perhaps I'm not explaining it well enough. Maybe if we speak in terms of substance and accidents.

Many of the [i]accidents [/i] of our glorified bodies will be similar to that our our earthly bodies, such as some of our bodily features. But the substance of our bodies will be entirely different. Our humanity is now [i]wedded[/i] to Christ and our glorified bodies will actually [i]become a [u]part of God[/u][/i]. The body's very substance, it's essence, will be raised [i]higher than the angels[/i] in a state that Adam and Eve never experienced. Adam and Eve's bodies, though intended to be immortal, were nonetheless [i]earthly[/i] and unglorified. Our bodies will be entirely different as we will be a part of God Himself.

What you're stating seems at first glance to be convincing, but it is actually a matter that was debated at the Council of Orange in 529 AD and found to be in error.

[Aloysius]

I guess I'll drop it. I wasn't intedning to say it was to return precisely to the same as before the fall, simply that our bodies would be elevated to perfect nature and then supernaturally elevated... I related that to how Adam and Eve were in a state supernaturally elevated before the fall so that they had full control of all passions, but definitely the glorified body will be elevated far more than Adam and Eve were, to participate in the divine life of the Trinity.

however, I do not believe we will be the same in accidence only, the body will be made of the same substance as was originally created, it will be elevated, perfected, and glorified beyond the mortal limitations it has now. it will be the same substance of flesh and blood as our bodies are made out of now, we don't just shed off the shell and abandon it. God rebuilds that same body we had in our earthly life then perfects it and glorifies it. the substance is elevated, but it is still the same flesh and blood we had on earth.

also, another minor distinction, while our bodies will be so united to God as to be part of God, we are still individual creations in that uinion with God

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 9 2005, 01:48 PM'] however, I do not believe we will be the same in accidence only, the body will be made of the same substance as was originally created, it will be elevated, perfected, and glorified beyond the mortal limitations it has now.  it will be the same substance of flesh and blood as our bodies are made out of now, we don't just shed off the shell and abandon it.  God rebuilds that same body we had in our earthly life then perfects it and glorifies it.  the substance is elevated, but it is still the same flesh and blood we had on earth.
[/quote]
I'm not sure you understand the terms "substance" and "accident." These are philosophical terms you'll benefit from reading up on. Flesh and blood are not substances, but accidents predicable of the substance. If you understand the terms, then you'll understand why the distinctions you're making were proclaimed by the Church to be in error.

Edited May 9, 2005 by Pilgrim

[Aloysius]

Actually, I know perfectly well the terms substance and accidents, and flesh and blood do have a substance to them. How else in transubstantiation does the bread and wine still remain the accidents of bread and wine while taking the substance of flesh and blood? flesh and blood are substance, and such substance remains in the ressurected body. I don't know if the accidents remain the same or not but it is clear to me that we hold the same substance of flesh and blood in the ressurection.