The Spanish Inquisition

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum' date='May 8 2005, 12:42 PM'] I'll argue that the inquisitions on witches in Germany were a myth.  You see, the Roman inquisition, the one run by the pope, had very little to do with witches.  While the Catholic church did believe in witches, it was mostly the Protestants who burned them.  The burning times coincide almost exactly with the rise of protestantism, a sharp economic decline, and the wars of religion.  Not a coincidence. [/quote]
Sorry Ordo,

Read on the web Pope Innocent VIII's Bull "Summis desiderantes" of 1484. This became know as the Witches Bull.

[url="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/witches1.html"]http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/witches1.html[/url]

It authorized Fr. Henry Institoris and Fr Jacob Sprenger, both Dominican theologians, to begin an Inquisition in Germany to discover "heresy" and witches.

They in turn wrote "The Hammer of Witches" (also on the web) describing the methods of torture to be followed in forcing those accused of heresy and witchcraft to confess and implicate others.

Once again, apologists try to avoid admitting what is historically inescapable and to blame someone else for the Church's actions. :angry:

LittleLes

Edited May 8, 2005 by LittleLes

[Aloysius]

I fully support the execution of heretics by Catholic states just as I fully support the execution of people who commit treason to regular secular states. off with their heads! perhaps the torturous fire of being burned at the stake will cause them to fear God and repent, offering that suffering up for the salvation of their souls.

besides, most cases in the spanish inquisition resulted in penances, nothing more. people blasphemed in the secular courts so that they would be sent to the inquisition, the most fair court system of the day. there are great exagerations about the Spanish Inquisition, all of which are traceable to protestants who were losing on the battlefield during religious wars.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 8 2005, 02:43 PM'] I fully support the execution of heretics by Catholic states just as I fully support the execution of people who commit treason to regular secular states. off with their heads! perhaps the torturous fire of being burned at the stake will cause them to fear God and repent, offering that suffering up for the salvation of their souls.

besides, most cases in the spanish inquisition resulted in penances, nothing more. people blasphemed in the secular courts so that they would be sent to the inquisition, the most fair court system of the day. there are great exagerations about the Spanish Inquisition, all of which are traceable to protestants who were losing on the battlefield during religious wars. [/quote]
Hi Aloyious,


Do you really support the burning of heretics at the stake? Lutherans were considered heretics. Got any Lutheran neighbors with whom you share your views?

Do you mind if I consider such views as a pathology in some Catholic thinking? But unfortunately such a view is shared by some very conservative Catholics even today.

Scary, isn't it?

LittleLes

Protestants. Beware of Catholics with barbarcues!

[Aloysius]

by a Catholic state that didn't have the technology for painless deaths we have today, YES, even the lutherans, especially the followers of Martin Luther who went around killing people who wouldn't renounce Catholocism, smashing statues and precious artwork, and burning every book except the Bible.

anyway, the Spanish Inquisition only executed in cases of criminal heresy. i.e. because of your heresy you committed a grave crime. like if the heresy you followed led you to kill a baby, that's the stuff the Inquisition was mainly after in executions.

you have to understand, heresy was dangerous business... it threatened the very fabric of society. heresy destroyed faith, it destroyed lives, it broke down the structure that kept society functioning.

anyway, a Catholic State executing heretics, especially criminal material heretics, is no different than a secular state executing treasonous criminals. treason and heresy are both grave crimes against the society that merit the just punishment of death.

[Ordo.Teutonicorum]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='May 8 2005, 02:42 PM'] Sorry Ordo,

Read on the web Pope Innocent VIII's Bull "Summis desiderantes" of 1484. This became know as the Witches Bull.

[url="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/witches1.html"]http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/witches1.html[/url]

It authorized Fr. Henry Institoris and Fr Jacob Sprenger, both Dominican theologians, to begin an Inquisition in Germany to discover "heresy" and witches.

They in turn wrote "The Hammer of Witches" (also on the web) describing the methods of torture to be followed in forcing those accused of heresy and witchcraft to confess and implicate others.

Once again, apologists try to avoid admitting what is historically inescapable and to blame someone else for the Church's actions. :angry:

LittleLes [/quote]
Actually, I own the Malleus Maleficarum in both the Latin and the English, as well as the Bull. I have read them both, and I fully understand what was being done. However, I defy you to show me one Catholic witch trial and burning. Please, provide that documentation.

And actually, you clearly haven't read the Malleus. Most of the book is NOT about torturing anyone, that's only a very small section. Most of the book deals with the theological basis for witches, and with what powers and abilities witches possess.

Edited May 8, 2005 by Ordo.Teutonicorum

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='May 8 2005, 02:33 PM'] I am always entertained by the Catholic apologetics revision of history. Let's look at Pope Alexander IV's Bull of 1256:

"Bishop Alexander, the servant of the servants of God, fondly sends greetings an apostolic blessings to the fraternal sons of the Order of Preachers, who are inquisitors in the terrible depraved heresy in Tholosa and in all the lands of that noble man, the Count of Poitou. So that you may proceed more freely in carrying out the business of faith, we grant that, by the present authority, if out of human weakness, in some cases you incur a sentence of excommunication and irregulatiry, or that you remember that you may have incurred such, and because of the exercise of the office that you bear you are not able to go to your superiors, we grant that you can absolve yourselves according to the form of the church and dispense by your authority, in the same manner as ws granted by the apostolic see to your superiors."

Henry Charles Lea, "History of the Inquisition in the Middle Ages," Harper, NY. pg 575

Translation, if the someone died under torture by the Dominicans, they could absolve themselves.

Is it seriously being maintain, that this was not the position of the Church and, as in the case of chattel slavery, the Church really opposed to the use of torture by its members to discover heresy ?

LittleLes [/quote]
These are things I learned on the History Channel and in medieval history (taught by a protestant professor).

Like I said, it was a tragic chapter in a starker period of history. However, I find secular revisionism a little less entertaining.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 8 2005, 03:07 PM'] by a Catholic state that didn't have the technology for painless deaths we have today, [/quote]
Aloyious,

Didn't have the technology for painless deaths that we have today? So they decided to burn them at the stake, is that it?

Ever hear of beheading. That's even how they did St. Paul in.

And, yes, if one disagreed with the Church on any point of dogma or scripture, one was a heretic. For example, Galileo said that the earth moved and that got him labeled as a heretic!

It only demonstrates bizarre Catholicism could become.

Would you believe that there are still some people today who think we should execute people who don't believe each and every point of the institutional Catholic party line?

LittleLes

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum' date='May 8 2005, 03:11 PM'] Actually, I own the Malleus Maleficarum in both the Latin and the English, as well as the Bull. I have read them both, and I fully understand what was being done. However, I defy you to show me one Catholic witch trial and burning. Please, provide that documentation.

And actually, you clearly haven't read the Malleus. Most of the book is NOT about torturing anyone, that's only a very small section. Most of the book deals with the theological basis for witches, and with what powers and abilities witches possess. [/quote]
Surely you jest! There were very many. You might want to start with the witch Huges de Baniol burned to death. It's cited in the Catholic Encyclopedia under witchcraft.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org./cathen/15674a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org./cathen/15674a.htm[/url]

And saying that only a small part of the Malleus Maleficarum is about torturing anyone is like saying only a small part of Mein Kampf is about exterminating Jews.

And when was the last time the Malleus was published with ecclesiastical approval?

LittleLes

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='May 8 2005, 06:55 AM'] Hi Phatcatholic,

Are you restricting the discussion to the Spanish Inquisition only, or are you including the much larger Inquisition of the German women accused of being witches? See the papal writing, "The Witches Bull" and the "Hammer of Witches," both of which are in our history books and on the web.

LittleLes [/quote]

Since I see you have latter corrected your error here, I will let it go however in the future please try to have your history correct the first time you bring things up.

Edited May 8, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Ordo.Teutonicorum]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='May 8 2005, 05:25 PM'] Surely you jest! There were very many. You might want to start with the witch Huges de Baniol burned to death. It's cited in the Catholic Encyclopedia under witchcraft.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org./cathen/15674a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org./cathen/15674a.htm[/url]

And saying that only a small part of the Malleus Maleficarum is about torturing anyone is like saying only a small part of Mein Kampf is about exterminating Jews.

And when was the last time the Malleus was published with ecclesiastical approval?

LittleLes [/quote]
I'm not sure, but I can clearly state that, having not read the document, you don't really have a right to talk about it.

[Aloysius]

only material heretics who threaten the fabric of society.. it's the same thing as executing people for treason.

okay, I guess beheading is better; I didn't think of that. however, they burnt them at the stake and I really don't have a problem with that.

by the way, there's no "party line." you're either Catholic or you aren't. The cafeteria is closed, so either eat what's on the table or pick another religion. don't worry, you won't be in danger of execution unless you start attacking Catholic society.

there is no reason for you to be Catholic if you want to pick and choose your beliefs. go away from the Church, at least then we can have a clearer picture of who needs converting; stop infiltrating.

[Don John of Austria]

Haven't we argued this arguement like 20 times, can't we just directthem to our previous threads.

[Aloysius]

nah... we gotta hash it out with the new folk. that's the nature of the phorum

[Don John of Austria]

BUt it's always the same thing and they don't ever really listen anyway.

[Crispy]

its always worth repeating cause theres always someoneelse lookin for truth