Crusades

[ironmonk]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 12 2005, 11:19 PM'] Well they might want to do a bit more research then. [/quote]
They know more than you.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='May 12 2005, 09:20 PM'] They know more than you. [/quote]


I'm not going to get into a silly argument like that. However, they did leave out all of the European crusades. Some historians feel that only crusades targeting Jerusalem were valid crusades, others disagree. I personally feel that any crusade proclaimed by the pope was a valid crusade. As such, the Reconquista, Albigensian crusade, Prussian, Livonian, Wendish, etc, all need to be included in a discussion of crusading.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='May 12 2005, 12:09 PM'] Oh, [u][b]a[/b][/u] class, that makes you an expert? There are priests with years of study on the subject that get things wrong. A single class doesn't hold much weight. [/quote]
You're right here...though I do think my theology professor might agree with me in this case.

[quote]The crusades were just, the cause was just... when the crusades were taken out of the pope's hands they turned. This was not the original intent. The original intent of the crusades were totally just.[/quote]

Yes, the [i]original intent[/i]. Too bad you ignored what I said about the Fourth Crusade not going by original intent. I took that from both a Byzantine Scholar, my own reading, and the Catholic Encyclopedia, written by Priests.

I don't ask you to say they were all unjust, but I do want people to stop making blanket claims.

Edited May 13, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 12 2005, 11:28 PM'] You're right, it's a good thing I'm

Yes, the [i]original intent[/i].  Too bad you ignored what I said about the Fourth Crusade not going by original intent.  I took that from both a Byzantine Scholar, my own reading, and the Catholic Encyclopedia, written by Priests.

I don't ask you to say they were all unjust, but I do want people to stop making blanket claims. [/quote]
Yeah. I was hoping to show the evidence of the crusades being unjust, but they seem to prefer turning a deaf ear. I personally think that from an 11th century western viewpoint they were just. But not necessarily as an all-encompassing moral statement.

Edited May 13, 2005 by KizlarAgha

[Q the Ninja]

I edited my first line.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 12 2005, 11:31 PM'] I edited my first line. [/quote]
So you did.

[Q the Ninja]

LoL, I was just mentioning that because you have the other one quoted.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 12 2005, 11:46 PM'] LoL, I was just mentioning that because you have the other one quoted. [/quote]
Better?

[Q the Ninja]

Thanx.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 12 2005, 11:29 PM'] Yeah. I was hoping to show the evidence of the crusades being unjust, but they seem to prefer turning a deaf ear. I personally think that from an 11th century western viewpoint they were just. But not necessarily as an all-encompassing moral statement. [/quote]
I didn't turn a deaf ear I simply disagree, I have given reasons for my disagreement. I think that they where just, I don't acknoledge that morallity changes with " point of View" and while I agree about the Danger of the Ottomans I think it was the Crusades that gave strength to hold out. And the Crusading orders would neverhave existed without the Crusades, without the Hosplliters I really don't see a way that Europe would have held out.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 13 2005, 12:00 AM'] I didn't turn a deaf ear I simply disagree, I have given reasons for my disagreement. I think that they where just, I don't acknoledge that morallity changes with " point of View" and while I agree about the Danger of the Ottomans I think it was the Crusades that gave strength to hold out. And the Crusading orders would neverhave existed without the Crusades, without the Hosplliters I really don't see a way that Europe would have held out. [/quote]
Gotta love them hospitallers. Unless you're the Kizlar Agha...then maybe you don't.

[Winchester]

The idea of a crusade is just. There was much good in the various crusades; there was much bad. This happens when people get involved, even in good causes.

No one can wipe the Church from the earth. There will be a remnant, no matter what, until it's to the point that God says "screw it, I'm coming down there," and then we win anyway.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Winchester' date='May 17 2005, 01:57 AM'] The idea of a crusade is just. There was much good in the various crusades; there was much bad. This happens when people get involved, even in good causes.

No one can wipe the Church from the earth. There will be a remnant, no matter what, until it's to the point that God says "screw it, I'm coming down there," and then we win anyway. [/quote]
I love the icon, but I miss Clint Eastwood.


I agree with you - the crusades were just. Like anything, corrupton occurred but it didn't eliminate the essential righteousness of the cause.

[Q the Ninja]

The cause was just...the execution was not necessarily so.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 17 2005, 11:49 AM'] The cause was just...the execution was not necessarily so. [/quote]
Well I could argue otherwise. And be very effective about it. But I'm sleepy. Just take everything I said against the crusades and turn it inside out.