Iraq War

[Don John of Austria]

I just want to point something out here the UN has no Authority, the US cannot give the UN authority because lie the UN the US has no Authority, the US has Power nothing more, Authority comes from God and the US has from the begining rejected God and rejected the Authority he grants. AS such no one is oblieged to obey the UN on any matters at all.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 13 2005, 04:25 AM'] Here is the problem with your constant call to obeying the pope on certain matters: It has been a historically dangerous thing to do.

For instance, Pope Liberius (sp?) was an Arian sympathizer, but it took the courages defiance of St. Athonasius to see the Church through that time period. The point, the pope can be wrong.

As a matter of fact, JPII's opposition to war completely (pacifism) is a non-Catholic notion mixed with humanitarianism. If that should be his opinion about war, can we rely on him for a just war opinion that is fair to the case?

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
The pope is never wrong when offically teaching on faith and morals.

[Don John of Austria]

No Cmom the pope is never wrong when speaking from the chair on matters of Faith and Morals.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 13 2005, 08:51 AM'] No Cmom the pope is never wrong when speaking from the chair on matters of Faith and Morals. [/quote]
The thing that always galls me is when folks say "Well he's not infallible on this" as to infer that his opinion is meaningless. As if it were to be disregarded.

JPII knew more about war than most folks around here. He lived through the devastation of war. There are very few armchair generals around this place who have any experience coming within a country mile of JPII's.

"Oh but he's not infallible on this"


Sheesh

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 13 2005, 09:04 AM'] The thing that always galls me is when folks say "Well he's not infallible on this" as to infer that his opinion is meaningless. As if it were to be disregarded.

JPII knew more about war than most folks around here. He lived through the devastation of war. There are very few armchair generals around this place who have any experience coming within a country mile of JPII's.

"Oh but he's not infallible on this"


Sheesh [/quote]
I just am making sure that we are factually correct, I certianly think the Popes opinion is important not just on War but on anything he speaks about, but that does not make everything he says correct, not even on matters of faith and morals, not unless he is speaking in his role as Pope.

[Jaime]

Don I apologize. When I reread my response it looks as if its directed specifically to you. It wasn't. There are, however, others on this thread that fall into the category.

I didn't mean for it to look like I was singling you out.

[Don John of Austria]

Accepted.


I understand, simular things have happened with post I have made.

[philothea]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 13 2005, 02:25 AM'] Here is the problem with your constant call to obeying the pope on certain matters: It has been a historically dangerous thing to do.

For instance, Pope Liberius (sp?) was an Arian sympathizer, but it took the courages defiance of St. Athonasius to see the Church through that time period. The point, the pope can be wrong.

As a matter of fact, JPII's opposition to war completely (pacifism) is a non-Catholic notion mixed with humanitarianism. If that should be his opinion about war, can we rely on him for a just war opinion that is fair to the case? [/quote]
It has not been a "historically dangerous thing" to obey the pope. Are you saying that more than 50% of all popes throughout history have been seriously wrong? Do you realize what that sounds like?

I better never listen to an ordinary priest, if I dare not listen to the pope! I better go figure out these complex moral issues by myself...

I do understand a pope can be wrong. The USCCB also denounced the war. I suppose the collective bishops of the country could be wrong too. Yes, the whole flipping magisterium can be wrong, so long as they're not getting the big infallible-faith-and-morals stamp out, right? Fine.

Even so, it seems to me that Church leaders of today haven't been too bad at teaching moral issues in the modern world. Unless it's obvious that he IS wrong, it might not be a bad idea to go along with the pope. Does that make sense? How can this be such a weird thought? I'm not saying anyone is wrong if they cannot honestly bring their conscience to do this.

Primarily what I wonder is why people think the president and the Republicans are better guides than the pope and the bishops.

Keep in mind that, in this instance, the pope wasn't wrong. The war has been disastrous.

[Didacus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 10 2005, 08:57 AM']
You mean like Ghandi or Martin Luther King? [/quote]
"If you need to choose between violence and cowardice, choose violence."
Ghandi

[Jaime]

[quote name='Didacus' date='May 13 2005, 10:06 AM'] "If you need to choose between violence and cowardice, choose violence."
Ghandi [/quote]
What's your point?

Did Ghandi promote non violent resistance? Yes or no?

[Didacus]

OK, read most of the thread, and I feel many of you have gone aside of the subject...

I could cite several facts, and make this a lenghty thread... but I will advance this comparison instead to show clearly how the Iraq war is at the core of its intent - unlawful and perversed and evil.



remember the 90s? Not talking about WWII here,... just the 90s... not that far back...

RWANDA: 3 million people slaughtered in an unshameful attempt at genocide. CLEAR AND UNQUESTIONABLE JUST WAR!

military interventions: none
NO OIL, NO WAR




Now lets look at Iraq,

Questionable premises, dispersed opinions amongst nations, misinformations, weak link to war... VERY DOUGTFUL JUST WAR.

military intervential: you betcha!
THERE'S OIL, THERE'S A WAR!


I realize some have claimed that stealing the Iraqi oil was not the purpose of the war. Perhaps, I can believe this. Becasue the intent was not to steal, but to 1. ommit, and 2. to control.

Notice the price of oil lately? Steadily rising in the last few years hasn't it? Remove the 2.5 million barrels per day of oil from Iraq will do that the world economy. Profits from major oil exporters accross the world have been breaking record after record after record for the last 3-4 years. It is impossible to quantify the profits but realize, please, that the order of magnitude of the world oil market is sized at over 2 trillions $ per year! And do these people care about the cost of the war in Iraq... NO WAY! Never... because the citizens of the US are the ones picking up that tab. Unfortunately, the US citizen will be paying the price of this war for generations.




[color=red]WAR IS A RACKET[/color]

To believe otherwise is pure naivity. I implore everyone on this thread to follow and read the folowing link:

[url="http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm"]http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm[/url]

To those who have never read this piece of work and read it for the first time, you will be dismayed beyond belief - I GUARANTEE IT.
The piece actually won a pulitzer prize, and it will either ENTIRELY change your outlook on war, or definately strenghten it.

[Didacus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 13 2005, 10:15 AM'] What's your point? 

Did Ghandi promote non violent resistance?  Yes or no? [/quote]
Very simple,

Throughout his peaceful talks and intents, Ghandi remained realistic adn kenw the value, and sometimes the necessity, of violence.

He promoted using peaceful ways first, but be ready to use violence if required.

Edited May 13, 2005 by Didacus

[Timothy]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 12 2005, 02:05 PM']
What if, through some absurdity, the Iraq war was infalliby declared unjust by Pope Benedict XVI? Would you submit to the Church's teaching? Who has your loyalty, the Church, or the State? The Bishop of Rome or the Republican Party? If you say that of course, you would submit to any Church teaching, then why do you not assent when they Church teaches in the form suitable for the issue?

[/quote]
Philo, I think you make a great point here. This was pretty much what I was speaking about when I asked, [quote]Does it seem as if some people are putting State in front of Church?[/quote] and was answered no. When dealing with a grave matter as were are dealing with here, it makes choosing sides tough. Especially when it involves our patriotic ties to the State. It is my beliefs that if we as Catholic's believe The Holy Spirit works through Christ's Church, then when faced with tough decisions should look to the elders of the Church for their advice. In looking to the elders Bishop Cardinals, Pope does not the Holy Spirit work through them? I would like to believe so. It is great that we all continue to strive to find Christ’s will through our continued research of the matter, and yet must continually keep our mind open to accepting that Christ will may not have been our first stance. Thus, not to let pride get in the way of searching for the Truth. We are called to protect the helpless through violent means if absolutely necessary (which I recently discovered as my thoughts on the matter before participating in this thread were different..thank you to all whom have helped clarify). In protecting these people we continue to kill them with our own bombs. I truly believe there was a better solution that could have resolved this matter.

God Bless.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 13 2005, 04:25 AM'] The point, the pope can be wrong. [/quote]
I agree with you on that.

[quote]As a matter of fact, JPII's opposition to war completely (pacifism) is a non-Catholic notion mixed with humanitarianism. If that should be his opinion about war, can we rely on him for a just war opinion that is fair to the case?[/quote]

Are you saying that Pope John Paul II held heretical views regarding war? I'm not accussing you of saying that, Mikey; I'm just wondering if that's what you're saying. I certainly hope it's not.

Pope John Paul II, like any other good Catholic, based his judgment on Catholic teaching regarding war. Catholics are allowed to use their discretion in judging the moral legitimacy of particular wars. Pope John Paul II happened to be against our war. The thing is, his opinion meant a lot to many people. Like I said above, he was both learned and holy. He lived through WWII; he studied Catholic theology extensively. While it's possible for him to have been wrong on certain things, I'd tend to trust his opinion before I'd trust the opinions of others.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 13 2005, 10:30 AM'] I just want to point something out here the UN has no Authority, the US cannot give the UN authority because lie the UN the US has no Authority, the US has Power nothing more, Authority comes from God and the US has from the begining rejected God and rejected the Authority he grants. AS such no one is oblieged to obey the UN on any matters at all. [/quote]
Well, if the United States has no authority, then the United States should not have started the war. Do you think the war is immoral, then, because it is waged by an illegitimate nation? And why do you think the U.N. lacks authority? I'm not sure that I understand your stance.