Iraq War

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Timothy' date='May 10 2005, 01:49 PM'] Your point is compelling Jas, but I find your comparison lacking. I find it hard to compare the judgment that God can make with that in which a human can make. Yes, God and Christ are one in the same with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Christ can pass this judgment down, as He is the only one whom should pass this judgment.

Also, you give us examples from the Old Testament. Where as God sent His only son Christ to fulfill the prophecies of the Old Testament and to give us ever lasting life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ showed us how to deal with our enemies in the New Testament, as He told us to Love them, to turn the other cheek.
Just a [i]few[/i] references:
Matthew 5:43
Romans 12:20-21
Matthew 5:39

So, [b]I would ask you even more specifically to show my in the New Testament where Christ has told us to kill/murder.[/b]

Don, am I to assume that you agree with my post in regards to the burden of standing behind your choices through life, since you haven’t responded?

God Bless. [/quote]
There was nothing to respond to, you asked if by supporting the war you took upon the responsability that Bush took on when starting it, I said no and explained why, then you changed your position and stated that people are responsable for the choices that they make, of course people are responsable for the choices that they make. However, that is not correlative to being responseable for the Choices others make, no one is responsable for sending men to war accept those which hold that Power. Those who have not that power are not reponsable for those that do, only those who make dec isions can be reponsable for them.

[Jaime]

Well I don't know about Timothy but I'm a huge fan of MASH!!

Winchester, I'm not arguing that the principles of just war are not valid. I was trying to be a bit engaging on your question.

Are they examples of people who tried to disarm through love? Yes. Did it cost them their lives? Yes. Were they still successful? Yes again.

I haven't jumped in on this topic (except to throw the Ghandi card ) because I think the Holy Father's opinion is valid on the Iraq war. I think that the justification from the "Of course we should have" group is (in my opinion) huge rationalizations.

There is a certain American arrogance when we claim to be fighting for the oppressed when its just the oppressed we've seen on the news.

There are far worse dictators and far greater threats to the US.

For example our involvement in Bosnia with the UN would be very applicable to the doctrine of Just War. Iraq.... not so much.

[Timothy]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 10 2005, 02:40 PM'] There was nothing to respond to, you asked if by supporting the war you took upon the responsability that Bush took on when starting it, I said no and explained why, then you changed your position and stated that people are responsable for the choices that they make, of course people are responsable for the choices that they make. However, that is not correlative to being responseable for the Choices others make, no one is responsable for sending men to war accept those which hold that Power. Those who have not that power are not reponsable for those that do, only those who make dec isions can be reponsable for them. [/quote]
You have clearly missed my point Don. By supporting the war you are one in the same with the person who chooses to send a man/country to war. Thus, you might share in the same burden as he. As will I for choosing not to support the war, and wanting more diplomatic peaceful means to have been used.

[Don John of Austria]

Further nothing in the Old Testement was abrogated by Christ coming I find it funny that God moving in the world for 2000 years is suposed to be eliminated by those Scriptures we have from Christ 3 year ministry on Earth, further the 2000 years of God acting since that time. Do you deny that the Councils are divinly inspired just as is the Scripture?

But since you would like examples God struck down Ananias and Sapphria killed tham dead-- Here Acts 5 : 1 A man named Ananias, however, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property.
2
He retained for himself, with his wife's knowledge, some of the purchase price, took the remainder, and put it at the feet of the apostles.
3
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land?
4
While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God."
5
When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it.
6
The young men came and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him.
7
After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, unaware of what had happened.
8
Peter said to her, "Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?" She answered, "Yes, for that amount."
9
Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."
10
At once, she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men entered they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
11
And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.

Further Christ taught that it was sometimes morally acceptable or even magnatory to compel people through force to come into the Church and to Kill them if they would not. I will find the parable for you but i cannot right now.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Timothy' date='May 10 2005, 02:54 PM'] You have clearly missed my point Don. By supporting the war you are one in the same with the person who chooses to send a man/country to war. Thus, you might share in the same burden as he. As will I for choosing not to support the war, and wanting more diplomatic peaceful means to have been used. [/quote]
Well your point is wrong, you cannot share in someones responsability it is not possible to do so, only those in power over a decision can be responsable for it.

[Timothy]

[quote name='Winchester' date='May 10 2005, 02:20 PM'] Trying to imagine these specific scenarios, and how succesful they were...

Let me be more specific: Actual situation. Not a protracted event, but a directly threatened life. Do you mean to tell me in your "killing is never acceptable" stance that if a man were an immediate threat to the life of an innocent you would not stop him by killing him, or by means which were likely to result in his death?


Nope. Didn't ask for examples of people who politically protested in protracted situations. I see no reason to condemn peaceful actions, but sadly, I believe your approach would have allowed the total extermination of the Jews and Gypsies in Nazi Germany. Thank God for warriors. Thank God for those who pray and those who will without violent reaction lay down their lives. Both serve God.

And it's an interesting name why? Are you a fan of MASH?


I believe someone pointed out that there is a time to kill. And let us not restrict moral law to what Christ "said," since not once did He repeal any laws in the Old Testament, and I don't believe Christ recited the big Ten anywhere in the Gospels. In the OT, it was permissible to kill a burglar at night, God ordered wars, too, if I recall. I guess you would be in favor of removing police as well as dismantling our militaries.

I never said the world could not be changed without violence. I only object to the position that ONLY non-violent methods or non-likely-fatal methods are acceptable. I object that war can never be moral. As a personal example, I object that you would allow someone to murder my child rather than kill the assailant, and further, that you would rather I do the same. If you don't mean this, then explain when and where force may be used and in what measure. [/quote]
I do not just restrict moral law to what Christ said, but also apply it to his actions. To lay down His life for the salvation of our sins in a peaceful way is an example of what I think Christ would want us to do. How did St. Peter die? Did he go out and round up a militia to fight his enemy? Did he pick up a sword to spare his own life? Let's get off of the MLK subject, although I still think they were good examples. If you really want an example of a person demonstrating peace let us look at the [b]Prince of Peace[/b].

I’m sorry that you feel that peaceful methods would have led to the extermination of the Jews. As I have some Jewish blood within me, I guess I may not of been around to write these words to you if we would have opted for peaceful methods of prevailing against evil. As for my feelings on this subject, I guess we will never know because we didn't use that option. So I dare not make a forecast about the future, because I do not doubt the power of Christ. Nor do I choose to limit His ability to move such mountains.

BTW, wasn't a real big fan of mash, but did watch it a few times. I just brought up the comment because of the rifle brand and the topic of murder

God Bless!

[Timothy]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 10 2005, 03:04 PM'] Well your point is wrong, you cannot share in someones responsability it is not possible to do so, only those in power over a decision can be responsable for it. [/quote]
Well, I believe you are wrong. I believe you can share in the responsibility by agreeing with the person. Thus, if you were put in the same position that you would have done the same thing. Also, you have the power over making your own decision, therefore responsibility comes with that power.

God Bless!

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Timothy' date='May 10 2005, 03:30 PM'] Well, I believe you are wrong. I believe you can share in the responsibility by agreeing with the person. Thus, if you were put in the same position that you would have done the same thing. Also, you have the power over making your own decision, therefore responsibility comes with that power.

God Bless! [/quote]
I will never know what i might have done if put in the same situation, if I was a born agian Christian with Bush's back ground I might have done what he did, but I will never know that, I cannot say what I might have done in his situation.

[Timothy]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 10 2005, 03:02 PM'] Further nothing in the Old Testement was abrogated by Christ coming I find it funny that God moving in the world for 2000 years is suposed to be eliminated by those Scriptures we have from Christ 3 year ministry on Earth, further the 2000 years of God acting since that time. Do you deny that the Councils are divinly inspired just as is the Scripture?

But since you would like examples God struck down Ananias and Sapphria killed tham dead-- Here Acts 5 : 1 A man named Ananias, however, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property.
2
He retained for himself, with his wife's knowledge, some of the purchase price, took the remainder, and put it at the feet of the apostles.
3
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land?
4
While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God."
5
When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it.
6
The young men came and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him.
7
After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, unaware of what had happened.
8
Peter said to her, "Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?" She answered, "Yes, for that amount."
9
Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."
10
At once, she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men entered they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
11
And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.

Further Christ taught that it was sometimes morally acceptable or even magnatory to compel people through force to come into the Church and to Kill them if they would not. I will find the parable for you but i cannot right now. [/quote]
Again I will repeat this. [quote]I find it hard to compare the judgment that God can make with that in which a human can make. Therefore, Christ can pass this judgment down, as He is the only one whom should pass this judgment.[/quote] Did Peter pick up a sword and kill/murder Ananias? You have clearly illustrated that in this passage. Thank you and God Bless.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Timothy' date='May 10 2005, 03:38 PM'] Again I will repeat this. Did Peter pick up a sword and kill/murder Ananias? You have clearly illustrated that in this passage. Thank you and God Bless. [/quote]
No he struck her down with the power of the Lord, you asked for an example of God being violent in the New Testement, I gave it, I also told you Christ taught that the use of the sword was exceptable, in the parable about the King and the Feast, he orders his troops to compel people to come in, those that make war on his servants he orders his troops to slay. Now before you say that is not ment to relate to human servants, the Church Fathers, notably Augustine disagree with you.

[Timothy]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 10 2005, 03:37 PM'] I will never know what i might have done if put in the same situation, if I was a born agian Christian with Bush's back ground I might have done what he did, but I will never know that, I cannot say what I might have done in his situation. [/quote]
Well, before you support the choices someone else makes, maybe you should act as if it were you making those decisions.

I like to refer to the little bracelet you see around WWJD What Would Jesus Do, when faced with decisions. Furthermore, if you do not know what you would have done in that situation, I think there is always room to reexamine your stance, because by supporting it, it is interpreted that you would have done the same as he.

God Bless!

Edited May 10, 2005 by Timothy

[Timothy]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 10 2005, 03:45 PM'] No he struck her down with the power of the Lord, you asked for an example of God being violent in the New Testement, I gave it, I also told you Christ taught that the use of the sword was exceptable, in the parable about the King and the Feast, he orders his troops to compel people to come in, those that make war on his servants he orders his troops to slay. Now before you say that is not ment to relate to human servants, the Church Fathers, notably Augustine disagree with you. [/quote]
No, you gave an example of Christ passing judgment down upon somebody. Do you think Christ is passing His judgment down in this war in Iraq? Or is it possible that there are other interest at stake here?

God Bless!

Edited May 10, 2005 by Timothy

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Timothy' date='May 10 2005, 03:46 PM'] Well, before you support the choices someone else makes, maybe you should act as if it were you making those decisions.

I like to refer to the little bracelet you see around WWJD What Would Jesus Do, when faced with decisions. Furthermore, if you do not know what you would have done in that situation, I think there is always room to reexamine your stance, because by supporting it, it is interpreted that you would have done the same as he.

God Bless! [/quote]
It is interpreted by you.


Another example of Scripture which Authorizes or even directs the use of violence/ the sword.
Rm. 13:4
He beareth not the sword in vain: for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil";

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Timothy' date='May 10 2005, 03:51 PM'] No, you gave an example of Christ passing judgment down upon somebody. Do you think Christ is passing His judgment down in this war in Iraq? Or is it possible that there are other interest at stake here?

God Bless! [/quote]
It was not interpreted as such at the time but as a wonder done "among the people at the hands of the apostles." And I have never said I thought that the war in Iraq was just, as a matter of fact I have said the opposite of that, but not for the Reasons you propose, your reasons are not valid reasons. Violence and war are certianly justifiable whether or not this is a Just War is irrelevant to the justice of war in general.

[Timothy]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 10 2005, 03:56 PM'] It is interpreted by you.


Another example of Scripture which Authorizes or even directs the use of violence/ the sword.
Rm. 13:4
He beareth not the sword in vain: for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil"; [/quote]
[quote]Romans Chapter 13

1

1 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.

[b]2

Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. [/b]

3

For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,

4

for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.

5

Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience.

6

This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.

7

Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

8

[b]2 Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. [/b]

9

The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
[b]
10

Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law. [/b][/quote]


Take a closer look at verse 2 [quote]Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.[/quote] By taking a stance you bear the burden of taking a stance. By supporting the war you bear the burden of the war.

[quote]Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law.[/quote] I f love does no evil to thy neighbor, then how am I to decide whether or not to inclict the wrath of God upon somebody. As I said before it is only Christ’s call, not ours. We are called to love and practice non violence, to turn the other cheak, But to kill/murder only throws fuel on the fire.