Iraq War

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 10 2005, 10:38 AM'] So are you suggesting that any accomplishments done by non Catholics are irrelevant and have no application to our lives? [/quote]
I am stating that when talking about what Chirst demands sighting those who where in opposition to Him as an example is not the best choice.


MLK was a protestant minister ergo he was in opposition to Christ Church and using him an example of proper Christian behavior is laughable.


Using Ghandi as a Christian example is down right offensive. He was set agianst God in just about every way.

[Jaime]

I am not proclaiming either to be a Catholic role model.

To disregard their accomplishments and to say that we cannot take anything from those accomplishments is what is offensive.

The question pertains to changing the world through non violence. Their actions (while you are in the minority in disagreeing with it) were non violent and were successful.

Do you believe that they did not bring positive change to the world simply because they weren't Catholic?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 10 2005, 11:01 AM'] I am not proclaiming either to be a Catholic role model.

To disregard their accomplishments and to say that we cannot take anything from those accomplishments is what is offensive.

The question pertains to changing the world through non violence. Their actions (while you are in the minority in disagreeing with it) were non violent and were successful.

Do you believe that they did not bring positive change to the world simply because they weren't Catholic? [/quote]
I do not believe that Ghandi's achievments where good no.

[Jaime]

That doesn't really answer the question Don.

Is it because he wasn't Catholic?

[jasJis]

[quote name='Timothy' date='May 10 2005, 09:35 AM'] Those are great examples hot stuff! As I think your challenge has been met Winchester (interesting name). As for the doctrine that Christ laid forth, I am in no way a scholar of the doctrine, but I think many times through out scripture Christ ask us to love our enemy. How can we fight evil by killing it with blood? Isn't one of the commandments thou shall not kill? I don't think that leaves much room for argument. I can go one this topic for awhile, but [b]I would rather challenge you to show me where Christ tells us to fight evil with evil.[/b] If dying for your cause is the outcome of resolving manners in a peaceful way, then I think it is a righteous death.

God Bless! [/quote]
Tim,
All killing is not 'EVIL'. Sometimes it is a consequence of our actions. To call killing 'EVIL' is to call God Himself 'EVIL'! Was God 'EVIL' when He killed all the first born in Egypt? Was God 'EVIL' when He caused the walls of Jericho to fall for the Isrealite army?
If God is Jesus and Jesus is God, then they are the same person, perpetrating the same acts.
There is a time for killing, a time for peace. War is a symptom of the disordered world we live in, not the cause. We have to wage war when it is needed to combat the physical imposition of evil. It is sometimes a moral obligation to do so.

[Noel's angel]

i'm looking at the Church Militant logos under both your names and laughing because you two couldn't be more polarised when it comes to this subject lol (hot stuff and Don John of Austria)

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 10 2005, 11:14 AM'] That doesn't really answer the question Don.

Is it because he wasn't Catholic? [/quote]
It's related. Ghandi's Goals where Evil, the fact that he had evil goals was directly related to the Fact that he wasn't Catholic and that his Goals where not those which one would have if one where Catholic..

[Noel's angel]

his method was admirable

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 10 2005, 11:20 AM'] his method was admirable [/quote]
I disagree, I find placing the innocent at risk and relying on tyour enemy to have a concience so that they are not massacered is not a very admirable method.

[Noel's angel]

ok, so you would rather he went out and shot a load of people then?


i can't be bothered anymore, i'm too tired

[Jaime]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 10 2005, 11:19 AM'] It's related. Ghandi's Goals where Evil, the fact that he had evil goals was directly related to the Fact that he wasn't Catholic and that his Goals where not those which one would have if one where Catholic.. [/quote]
Let's continue on that for a moment. Shall we? If we are to disregard people's accomplishments because they weren't Catholic and could quite possibly be residing in hell (or soon to) Let's then add

Henry Ford - Protestant and Anti Semite ,
Bill Gates - Athiest
Thomas Edison - Athiest

If we are to disregard the accomplishments of people who promote evil.

You may want to

Sell your car
Turn off your computer
sit in the dark

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 10 2005, 11:40 AM'] Let's continue on that for a moment. Shall we? If we are to disregard people's accomplishments because they weren't Catholic and could quite possibly be residing in hell (or soon to) Let's then add

Henry Ford - Protestant and Anti Semite ,
Bill Gates - Athiest
Thomas Edison - Athiest

If we are to disregard the accomplishments of people who promote evil.

You may want to

Sell your car
Turn off your computer
sit in the dark [/quote]
While I see the life of the Amish as quite appealing and would be only to happy to turn back the clock on technology there is no way to do so, not in my power anyway. I use the tools of modernity because i live in modernity, just like i live in a world with an independent India, wether or not that is good is immaterial it is so, likewise I cannot get rid of the car, and so i am forced to live with one, our cities are built with them in mind and it is virtually impossible to function without one. The lights and computer are simular, although the compter is still quite iffy to me, the decorporalization of man is a serious issue which computers are exacerbating, but the exist and not using them will not get rid of them, so since their use is not directly evil I choose to use them.

[Jaime]

My point being that sometimes the actions of non Catholics can be of benefit to society regardless of the state of their salvation. It would be foolish for us to simply disregard their accomplishments and not try to improve upon their successes simply because they are are not of the Faith.

[Timothy]

[quote name='jasJis' date='May 10 2005, 11:15 AM'] Tim,
All killing is not 'EVIL'. Sometimes it is a consequence of our actions. To call killing 'EVIL' is to call God Himself 'EVIL'! Was God 'EVIL' when He killed all the first born in Egypt? Was God 'EVIL' when He caused the walls of Jericho to fall for the Isrealite army?
If God is Jesus and Jesus is God, then they are the same person, perpetrating the same acts.
There is a time for killing, a time for peace. War is a symptom of the disordered world we live in, not the cause. We have to wage war when it is needed to combat the physical imposition of evil. It is sometimes a moral obligation to do so. [/quote]
Your point is compelling Jas, but I find your comparison lacking. I find it hard to compare the judgment that God can make with that in which a human can make. Yes, God and Christ are one in the same with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Christ can pass this judgment down, as He is the only one whom should pass this judgment.

Also, you give us examples from the Old Testament. Where as God sent His only son Christ to fulfill the prophecies of the Old Testament and to give us ever lasting life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ showed us how to deal with our enemies in the New Testament, as He told us to Love them, to turn the other cheek.
Just a [i]few[/i] references:
Matthew 5:43
Romans 12:20-21
Matthew 5:39

So, [b]I would ask you even more specifically to show my in the New Testament where Christ has told us to kill/murder.[/b]

Don, am I to assume that you agree with my post in regards to the burden of standing behind your choices through life, since you haven’t responded?

God Bless.

[Winchester]

[quote]You mean like Ghandi or Martin Luther King?[/quote]
Trying to imagine these specific scenarios, and how succesful they were...

Let me be more specific: Actual situation. Not a protracted event, but a directly threatened life. Do you mean to tell me in your "killing is never acceptable" stance that if a man were an immediate threat to the life of an innocent you would not stop him by killing him, or by means which were likely to result in his death?

[quote]As I think your challenge has been met Winchester (interesting name). [/quote]
Nope. Didn't ask for examples of people who politically protested in protracted situations. I see no reason to condemn peaceful actions, but sadly, I believe your approach would have allowed the total extermination of the Jews and Gypsies in Nazi Germany. Thank God for warriors. Thank God for those who pray and those who will without violent reaction lay down their lives. Both serve God.

And it's an interesting name why? Are you a fan of MASH?

[quote]I would rather challenge you to show me where Christ tells us to fight evil with evil. [/quote]
I believe someone pointed out that there is a time to kill. And let us not restrict moral law to what Christ "said," since not once did He repeal any laws in the Old Testament, and I don't believe Christ recited the big Ten anywhere in the Gospels. In the OT, it was permissible to kill a burglar at night, God ordered wars, too, if I recall. I guess you would be in favor of removing police as well as dismantling our militaries.

I never said the world could not be changed without violence. I only object to the position that ONLY non-violent methods or non-likely-fatal methods are acceptable. I object that war can never be moral. As a personal example, I object that you would allow someone to murder my child rather than kill the assailant, and further, that you would rather I do the same. If you don't mean this, then explain when and where force may be used and in what measure.