Music

[MichaelFilo]

Thank you. Their faith bears fruit in praise in thanksgiving. Aside from the obscurity of that line (what kind of fruit) that says nothing about God being pleased with their worship. He may still be happy at their intent to praise and give thanks to Him and subsequently is happy for that, but the actual worship outside of the full Communion of the Catholic Church is displeasing.

[Jaime]

If you find the reference to "fruit" to be obscure, I invite you to read the entire Vatican II document. I am only quoting a small portion of it. It contradicts your statement of [quote] Even if it were just "God is Good" it is a lie, since they reject God's Church. [/quote]

Protestants are in communion with the Church albeit an imperfect communion through the virtue of baptism.

Protestants can create good things.
Protestants can praise God.

The Catechism supports this. It is authoritative.

And we are not discussing the validity of their worship but of their music.

Edited May 7, 2005 by jaime

[mulls]

lol

[MichaelFilo]

I think I will go read Vatican two. However, you must remember, nothing is infalliable unless expressed to be so before it is said. If Vatican two does not bind such a thing by some sort of clear statement, then it will still be alot of popes in history vs modern pope and bishops. The council is infalliable, but any statement meant to be infalliable must be proceed with a statement that aims to make it thus.

God bless,
Mikey

[Jaime]

This is how it finishes

[quote]Each and all these matters which are set forth in this Decree have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.[/quote]

If decreed by a council or the Pope, it is to be considered infallible.

I hope this clears the way for you to be more charitable to our protestant brethren Michael.

[Jaime]

And we're back in business!!

Shall we continue?

[MichaelFilo]

You did say to go read Vatican Two, and as such, I'll go do so. Therefore, I can't be very active on this thread until I've read it, but there is ALOT of documents... although it is something I am sure you are aware of.

God bless,
Mikey

[Jaime]

Michael

Actually I was just suggesting reading through UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO. But I would never deter one from reading all of the documents.

This one in particular is the one that pertains to our discussion.


Also it was an open invitation to others to join in as well.

[Jaime]

This is an important topic so

BUMP

[MichaelFilo]

They are in an imperfect communion with Rome. Congratulations. They even are "justified by Faith". This doesn't even touch on whether their worship, seprated from the Church in visible unity (outside of the house), is any good. It doesn't even touch the topic whatsoever.

God bless,
Mikey

[Jaime]

[quote] They are in an imperfect communion with Rome. Congratulations[/quote]

That reads with a bit of animosity there Michael. Although I don't know why. I was simply pointing out where you were in error about protestants. We do believe that salvation exists for them and we are called to treat them with love and charity. Also that we believe that good things can come from them, inclusive of their music. Which after all is the topic at hand.

Cam has asserted that most Christian (protestant) music promotes Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide. Since (as he loves to toss around frequently) the burden of proof is on him to prove so. He hasn't.

We can continue on but someone is going to have to take up Camster's torch. Unless there are other folks that feel there are doctrinal issues with Christian music in general.

[Q the Ninja]

Doesn't that document say that they might exist (partially) within the Church of Christ, which subsists under (in?) the Catholic Church?

Edited May 9, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[Jaime]

By virtue of their baptism, they maintain in partial communion with the Church.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote]Jesus Christ, then, willed that the apostles and their successors -the bishops with Peter's successor at their head-should preach the Gospel faithfully, administer the sacraments, and rule the Church in love.[b] It is thus, under the action of the Holy Spirit, that Christ wills His people to increase, and He perfects His people's fellowship in unity: in their confessing the one faith, celebrating divine worship in common, and keeping the fraternal harmony of the family of God.

The Church, then, is God's only flock; it is like a standard lifted high for the nations to see it:(16) for it serves all mankind through the Gospel of peace(17) as it makes its pilgrim way in hope toward the goal of the fatherland above.(18) [/b]

This is the sacred mystery of the unity of the Church, in Christ and through Christ, the Holy Spirit energizing its various functions. It is a mystery that finds its highest exemplar and source in the unity of the Persons of the Trinity: the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit, one God.[/quote]

Partially communion does not institute being "in the house". As a matter of fact, it doesn't even constitute being "in the flock" (NB: "The Church, then, is God's only flock), but more likely on the fringes of the flock. The point of the matter is this, their worship is still not unified with the Church, but rejects Her in Her Truth. They do not "profess the Faith of the Catholic Church in it's entireity". They are then, "outside of the house" but more approrpriatly described as on the property.

By the way, is it just me, or is "imperfect communion" rather vague?

As far as the actual music, if they put their trust in the Bible to be their only authority, then any music they write is based on the principles of Sola Scriptura. Therefore, every single Protestant song must preach and profess is, because of it's author, and his intent for writing it. It woul dbe like a Catholic writing a song on the bible, although the Catholic's view of the bible is that it finds it's authority from the Church, and so the the song is not base don error.

Albiet, through all of this, music is subjective. In effect, what is to a Protestant bibles verses that come from the only authority on Faith, is to a Catholic a part of the Faith, that being tradition.

God bless,
Mikey

[Jaime]

[quote]They are then, "outside of the house" but more approrpriatly described as on the property. [/quote]

I'm sorry Michael but you are incorrect

Again I refer you to

[quote]The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized [b]are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect[/b].[/quote]

That is authoritative and infallible. You may not like it but its true. They are in the flock.

Likewise the music is neither Sola Scriptura or Sola fide. Primarily because most Christian songs are about a personal relationship. They are not proclaiming a belief to be held as a truth by all. Also, most do not quote scripture directly.

Are there some songs that are preaching Sola Scripture or Fide? Yeah but they don't number too many. The vast majority are simply a personal glorification of God. "This what you mean to me". Personal