Jaime Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 (edited) [quote]Whatever....it is heretical. How about the Grace part?[/quote] Trans: "I'm wrong and hot stuff's right" Edited May 5, 2005 by jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Objective view : Cam scores the point. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gal. 5:22,23 Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='May 5 2005, 09:30 AM'] Camster and Michael are missing the point from a liturgical point of view. The reason that Christian (protestant) songs are not appropriate (for mass) is that they talk about the personal relationship between I (myself) and God. Also it is rare that protestant music is scripturally based. Liturgically appropriate music is inclusive. It sings about our (the congregation) relationship with God. The only "I" in liturgically appropriate music is God. If there are lyrics about the individual person, its a direct quote from scripture. I do not believe for a moment that music that praises God, although not liturgically appropriate, is displeasing to God. There is a place in the world for music that celebrates one's personal faith. The mass is not one of them. [/quote] Can I ask a question? Where is it written that songs that talk about the personal relationship between I (myself) and God is inappropriate for Mass? This would make many of the psalms inappropriate, and they were sung in (ancient jewish) worship. King David had much to say about his relationship with God and he was called by God "A man after His own heart." And secondly, the comment about protestant songs rarely being scripturally based, well, I had to walk away from my computer for awhile. And just a final observation: could our opinions on worship music (as long it doesn't contradict Catholic doctrine) be what St. Paul described as disputable matters? I mean really, when I reach Rome, according to some of you I need to clean out my CD collection and stock the house with only Gregorian Chant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 During the MAss, we are not talking about our exclusive relationship with God. Look at the name: "Mass". Mass is not one person. To sing exclusive music is to seperate yourself from those around you worshipping. If you feel the need to claim that protestant songs are scripturally based (which some are) you'd also have to prove they have some correct idea of what that verse or chapter or book is trying to convey, and so they fail. I'd argue that even a verse taken straight out of scripture, when understood in the song innappropriatly or incorrectly, it is not of scripture, since that verse carries a false understanding behind it. There is music appropriate to the Mass. Most music is appropriate outside of the Mass, and few of us argue against that. However, if sung by anyone who is not Catholic in an attempt to achieve worship, then is inappropriate. By the way, music that is innappropriate is displeasing to God from whomever. However, when non-Catholic worship is being conducted, then it is also displeasing to God, outside of the fact that the music is or isn't appropriate. Same with the Mass, the Mass of the schismatic is displeasing to God. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priscilla Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 It's interesting you guys are discussing this. I had to give up singing in the CBSO Chorus because they sang songs I couldn't sing the words to (Carmina Burana, Dream of Gerontius etc). Some prot songs aren't too good I agree - others are wonderful. It all depends. And the sect I was in would never sing the words "Holy, holy, holy, God in Three Person, Blessed Trinity". No way - because those words are not Scriptural. However, many prot hymns are Scriptural - its the modern choruses that get on my nerves sometimes. As for the Mass - well my favourite bit is the "Benedictus" - it is prophetic (and still has to happen) and will be a glorious day when it happens. I'm not sure about the "Et incarnatus est" and one or two other bits - but basically, as a prot, I have no problem singing most of the words of the Mass (especially if they are in Latin and I don't understand what I'm singing!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 If only more Catholics shared your enthusiasm.... If you'd like to share some of the wonderful songs that are protestant... I'd like to read the lyrics. I guess that is why this thread was made. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='May 5 2005, 01:00 PM'] No hot stuff, I get it. We agree most of the time. Praise and worship music, especially Protestant praise and worship music is inappropriate in a Catholic setting. Liturgically appropriate music is inclusive, but not horizontally, only vertically. And the theology must be correct as well. Most of the music is heretical. It either ascribes to the heresy of Sola fide or sola scriptura. Mostly the former. hot stuff said the same thing, only nicer. That is why it is not appropriate. And.....this is a big and.....when the term heresy is used properly, there is nothing wrong in using it. There are intrinsic truths. If one doesn't ascribe to those truths, but is baptized and is therefore catholic, he is either a formal heretic (culpable) or a material heretic (non-culpable). The Church teaches this very clearly. [i]CIC, can. 751; Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith....[/i] So, Mikey isn't wrong technically....he is using heresy in the context of the teaching of the Church. Heresy isn't a naughty word. It is totally accurate when applicable. Cam [/quote] The point is charity. This is a debate board to talk to non-catholics who are not fluent in technicalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 That is true. I like to be upfront. If they are offended, as is likely, then I wil explain why I make the distinction. If they be material heretics willing to accept the Truth in the Catholic Church, then I will no longer have recourse to that word, if they continue in their rejection of Christ (fully) and His Church, then they should be branded thus lest they become a danger to someone's faith. Saint Jerome was very good for this style of conversation. I personally favor it. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 5 2005, 02:59 PM'] Objective view : Cam scores the point. God bless, Mikey [/quote] I get an objective view from someone Cam calls Cam Jr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 5 2005, 05:22 PM'] If only more Catholics shared your enthusiasm.... If you'd like to share some of the wonderful songs that are protestant... I'd like to read the lyrics. I guess that is why this thread was made. God bless, Mikey [/quote] Father I adore you and I lay my life before you How I love you Where's the heresy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 (edited) [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 5 2005, 08:22 PM'] That is true. I like to be upfront. If they are offended, as is likely, then I wil explain why I make the distinction. If they be material heretics willing to accept the Truth in the Catholic Church, then I will no longer have recourse to that word, if they continue in their rejection of Christ (fully) and His Church, then they should be branded thus lest they become a danger to someone's faith. Saint Jerome was very good for this style of conversation. I personally favor it. God bless, Mikey [/quote] You might favor it but it is not favored here. Dust and Father Pontifex set the rules. Prohibited Content: Negative Criticism of Other Religions- a post or comment that negatively criticizes (as opposed to constructively criticizes) a different religion in a way that is harmful to open ecumenical dialogue. "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838 Edited May 6, 2005 by cmotherofpirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 (edited) Edit: You know what, no reason to argue. Eventually, I have no say in the outcome of this. dUst gave you the powers to moderate, and he can set-up his own rules and you get to define them. It would be silly to even take up the cause of defending myself. God bless, Mikey Edited May 6, 2005 by MichaelFilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priscilla Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 (edited) Michael Filo: I shall post some prot lyrics up later (I'm a bit pressed for time now) cMom, I would just like to say this: some prots might be offended by MichaelFilo's stance - but he feels strongly about the issue, so if he wants to get his winnowing fork out that's OK by me - but I agree, some other prot coming on here might be offended, and I think the words you posted are wise words: and gracious. Grace is a wonderful virtue - our God is gracious to the just and the unjust. What I do find sad (rather than offensive) is ANY form of self-righteousness. I have been surprised to discover from this forum that some Catholics are indeed rather self-righteous (a sin I thought only applied to prots) and that some Catholics indeed consider themselves spiritually superior to other Christians. I sense MichaelFilo might be heading in that direction - and I feel sad for him: yet I admire his zeal. He just needs to maybe think in a different dimension spiritually for a moment or two before making such judgemental statements. But hey - I know plenty of prots who are just as self-righteous and consider themselves spiritually superior to Catholics. So it works both ways. The Christadelphian Forum I sometimes visit is just as strong in it's views on the type of music that community likes, and they would be rather scathing about Catholic hymns I'm sure. I'm increasingly beginning to see that types of worship and music, as well as some theological doctrines, can sometimes be a manifestation of God's wonderful creative powers to create diversity and variety within Truth. But I agree that in our human nature, we can offer "strange fire" before the Lord in worship: I've seen that on more than one occasion in prot meetings. Not a nice experience. I don't think any of us should think of oursevles as spiritually superior to any other Christian (Catholic or non-Catholic) because on that Day when the secrets of mens hearts are laid bare there, might be lots of surprises. God bless you all - I'll be back later with some prot lyrics!! Should be interesting! Edited May 6, 2005 by Priscilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrvoll Posted May 6, 2005 Author Share Posted May 6, 2005 Here is the top 25 prostant songs of catholics in USA: CCLI Top 25: Catholic February, 2005 Here are the Top 25 Songs, as reported by Catholic churches and youth ministries across the United States: 1. Lord I Lift Your Name On High - Rick Founds 2. Shout To The Lord - Darlene Zschech 3. Open The Eyes Of My Heart - Paul Baloche 4. Come Now Is The Time To Worship - Brian Doerksen 5. Here I Am To Worship - Tim Hughes 6. Breathe - Marie Barnett 7. Awesome God - Rich Mullins 8. Trading My Sorrows - Darrell Evans 9. Better Is One Day - Matt Redman 8. Shine Jesus Shine - Graham Kendrick 10. I Could Sing Of Your Love Forever - Martin Smith 11. Above All - Lenny LeBlanc/Paul Baloche 12. The Heart Of Worship - Matt Redman 13. God Of Wonders - Marc Byrd/Steve Hindalong 14. Blessed Be Your Name - Matt/Beth Redman 15. Let The River Flow - Darrell Patton Evans 16. You Are My King - Billy James Foote 17. He Is Exalted - Twila Paris 18. I Can Only Imagine - Bart Millard 19. Lord Reign In Me - Brenton Brown 20. You're Worthy Of My Praise - David Ruis 21. You Are My All In All - Dennis Jernigan 22. Shine Jesus Shine - Graham Kendrick 23. Take My Life - Scott Underwood 24. In The Secret - Andy Park 25. Draw Me Close - Kelly Carpenter All Day- Hillsong United www.ccli.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 Words and music by Rick Founds (Verse) Lord, I lift Your name on high Lord, I love to sing Your praises I'm so glad You're in my life I'm so glad You came to save us (Chorus) You came from heaven to earth To show the way From the earth to the cross My debt to pay From the cross to the grave From the grave to the sky Lord, I lift Your name on high Repeat Verse Repeat Chorus Repeat Chorus Lord, I lift Your name on high... That is the first song. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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