Music

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='May 23 2005, 05:41 AM'] There is quite a lot in the Mass I find unScriptural (except the Benedictus).

However the bit that puzzles me most is this:

In the CREDO we sing the words "begotten, NOT [b]made[/b]"

Yet later on we sing "and was [b]made[/b] man"

Surely, this is a contradiction? [/quote]
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem coeli et terrae, visibilium omnium, et invisibilium. Et in unum Dominum Jesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum. Et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, lumen de lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero. Genitum, [b]non factum, consubstantialem Patri:[/b] per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines, et propter nostram salutem descendit de coelis. Et incarnatus est de spiritu sancto ex Maria Virgine: [b]et homo factus est[/b]. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis, sub Pontio Pilato passus, et sepultus est. Et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas. Et ascendit in coelum: sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, judicare vivos et mortuos: cujus regni non erit finis. Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem: qui ex Patre [Filioque] procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum. Et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.

There's the original Latin. The way I read this is that originally God was not man. That I believe we both agree on. But the idea that the Word was "made man" means that He took on a human form, one that He did not have originally.

[Q the Ninja]

Oh, I meant to add to the fact that the beginning talks about the Word and the latter mentions Jesus as God and man. He did not start off as man, but took on the form.

[Priscilla]

I can follow that Q the N. Thanks.

I guess it all hinges on whether we believe the Lord Jesus Christ pre-existed or not.

I'm not sure about this: I certainly believe the Jesus is "THAT Eternal Life " which was "WITH the Father" "From the beginning". However, what form "that eternal life took" Scripture does not explicitly reveal: but it seems to have been glorious "The glory I had with you before the world began".

[Priscilla]

I can follow that Q the N. Thanks.

I guess it all hinges on whether we believe the Lord Jesus Christ pre-existed or not.

I'm not sure about this: I certainly believe the Jesus is "THAT Eternal Life " which was "WITH the Father" "From the beginning". However, what form "that eternal life took" Scripture does not explicitly reveal: but it seems to have been glorious "The glory I had with you before the world began".

[Jaime]

I'm sorry Priscilla

Did you say something?

[Priscilla]

Sorry for the double post - computer playing up!!

[Cam42]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='May 23 2005, 05:41 AM'] There is quite a lot in the Mass I find unScriptural (except the Benedictus).

However the bit that puzzles me most is this:

In the CREDO we sing the words "begotten, NOT [b]made[/b]"

Yet later on we sing "and was [b]made[/b] man"

Surely, this is a contradiction? [/quote]
There are several things that we must consider.

Do we affirm in the Credo that Christ is God? Yes.

Do we affirm that that Christ is man? Yes.

Part of the reason that there was a Credo established was to combat the Arian and Donatist heresies. Part of what they were fighting was the idea that Jesus wasn't fully human.

There is an idea called the hypostatic union. The Credo affirms this idea. That Jesus was fully God and fully man. To deny that Christ was made man would be to deny the humanity of Christ. To deny that Christ was fully divine is to deny that he is God.

That is why we say:
[quote]Genitum, non factum, consubstantialem Patri: per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines, et propter nostram salutem descendit de coelis. Et incarnatus est de spiritu sancto ex Maria Virgine: et homo factus est.[/quote]

To say that he is consubstantial with the Father is not to deny that he was made, but to affirm that he has a divine nature. And we affirm his human nature when we speak of his incarnation through the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. The reason for the Latin is to see the consistency of the language. One of the problems with the vernacular is that the language is open to interpretation. With Latin, this is not the case. The language is clear and unchanging.

As far as it being scriptural, there isn't necessarily a need for it to be scriptural. As a matter of fact, this becomes a stumbling block for the sola scriptura argument. Most denominations will accept the Credo in one form or another....but this is a statement of faith and not based upon scripture. Hmmmmmm......

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Cam42' date='May 24 2005, 07:07 AM'] To say that he is consubstantial with the Father is not to deny that he was made, but to affirm that he has a divine nature. And we affirm his human nature when we speak of his incarnation through the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. [/quote]
Thanks Cam 42 - I understand it better now.

Can you just confirm then: do Catholics believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was capable of sinning? When you say that He was fully human, I assume that this means that Catholics believe that Christ - while having a divine nature - COULD have sinned: it was possible in that He shared our human nature. Did He have fallen human nature?

[scardella]

First, what people are failing to mention is that when Catholics are using the Protestant-written p&W songs, it's the Catholics who are singing/praising/praying/exclaiming/loving God/etc. As long as the words aren't contradicting the faith, then it's in union w/ the Church, and all cool like that.

Second, I believe you have to examine each song individually.

Third, regarding wretch, Thomas a Kempis (or was it St. Louis de Montfort?) said it was profitable to meditate on our vileness, etc. Obviously it's not in the sense of that we are no good at all, but that we've been truly scarred by the ravages of sin. In that sense, we are indeed a wretch, and we need God's grace to become whole.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='May 24 2005, 10:40 AM'] Thanks Cam 42 - I understand it better now.

Can you just confirm then: do Catholics believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was capable of sinning? When you say that He was fully human, I assume that this means that Catholics believe that Christ - while having a divine nature - COULD have sinned: it was possible in that He shared our human nature. Did He have fallen human nature? [/quote]
Christ could not sin, being fully God as well as fully man.
He had human nature, but not [b]fallen[/b] human nature. He was preserved from original sin and the effects of the Fall.

[Mrvoll]

[quote name='Andre' date='May 23 2005, 06:57 AM'] where did you Vatican flag icon? [/quote]
I got it at www.catholic-defense.com