Music

[Mrvoll]

What non-catholic christian songs contridicts the catholic docturine?

Please ignore the spelling

[MichaelFilo]

I'll be frank (although my name is Michael ) with you. Most of the Catholics here are not Protestant converts. We aren't familiar with their sensational songs. From what I see, most don't even have any doctrine to them. My personal view on the Protestant heresay would probably make me more aggressive at dissecting protestant songs though. Anyways, if you want an answer, you'll probably have to provide Protestant songs, and we can dissect each as they come up. That way, we can be more acquanted with our "seperated brethren"'s choice of music in their false worship, and we can answer your question on a song by song basis. But please, if you do post songs, post lyrics too.

God bless,
Mikey

[corban711]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 3 2005, 10:19 PM'] That way, we can be more acquanted with our "seperated brethren"'s choice of music in their false worship, and we can answer your question on a song by song basis. But please, if you do post songs, post lyrics too.

[/quote]
while it is true that they don't have the Mass like we do, it is not correct to say that singing praise songs or hymns to God is "false worship". many of the praise songs written by protestants are simply words from the psalms and as such are very beautiful prayers. worship, as defined in the glossary of the CCC is "Adoration and honor given to God, which is the first act of the virtue of religion (2096). Public worship is given to God in the Church by the celebration of the Paschal Mystery of Christ in the liturgy (1067)." This adoration and honor given to God can and is done in many of these songs and so cannot be called false worship.

that being said, i would be willing to bet that some of the songs written by protestants are not theologically accurate and I would actually be interested in learning about those too! hopefully someone will come along and post some lyrics!

[MichaelFilo]

Non-Catholic worship is not pleasing to God. Their ends are to please God, and so the whole worship is false because it doesn't even meet that end. Although, the saints would argue non-Catholic worship is displeasing. And thus, it is completely false.

God bless,
Mikey

[Cam42]

[quote name='Mrvoll' date='May 3 2005, 06:40 PM'] What non-catholic christian songs contridicts the catholic docturine?

Please ignore the spelling [/quote]
I agree whole-heartedly with Cam Jr, uh...I mean frank, uh....I mean Mikey.
[quote]Non-Catholic worship is not pleasing to God. Their ends are to please God, and so the whole worship is false because it doesn't even meet that end. Although, the saints would argue non-Catholic worship is displeasing. And thus, it is completely false.[/quote]

But to answer your question, there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of songs that are not faithful to Catholic teaching. The biggest or most popular song that comes to mind would be [i]Amazing Grace.[/i]

If you do a careful study of the lyrics, you'll see that it contradicts the idea of Catholic identity in the eyes of God. Humans are not wretches. And the idea of grace is incorrect as well, on a theological level.

Song is praying twice, or so it is said. So, not only should we be catechized on prayer, but also on song. For if song is a medium to get God to hear us, then we should know and understand what we are saying to Him.

Cam

[corban711]

mikey,

is singing/praying the psalms true worship of God?

if no, why not?

if it is, then why wouldn't it still be true worship of God if a baptized Christian who is not Catholic (but invincibly ignorant for the sake of argument) sang/prayed that same psalm to God?


Cam, I agree about Amazing Grace and there probably are many others as well. Although, I think that at least many of their praise and worship songs are much more theologically accurate and beautiful than most songs written by Catholics in the last 40 years. as much as some may not like him, I will take Agnus Dei by Michael W. Smith over almost anything written by the St. Louis Jesuits whose songs are used all the time at Mass.

p.s. i am not saying we should all start singing Michael W Smith at Mass either...I am just saying that song has much more depth and beauty than most songs I hear at most Catholic Masses.

Edited May 4, 2005 by corban711

[MichaelFilo]

Worship is an action. Singing/praying are not worship. They can be a part of worship, but are not worship itself. To describe worship (the action) would be like to describe love (the action). There are many things that compromise it, but nothing is synonomous.

However, since you will consider non-Catholic singing/praying (I'm guessing we assume Protestant, of the evangelical breed) to be worship, I'll just use the word worship for the sake of this arguement. Invincible ignorance maybe (as according to recent theologians) enough to allow salvation outside of membership in the Catholic Church (physical). However, it is FAR from pleasing to God to receive their worship. Their worship is cloudly and misunderstood.

[quote]“… remember that the followers of every heresy extract from inspired scripture the occasion of their error, and that [b]all heretics corrupt the true expressions of the holy Spirit[/b] with their own evil minds and they draw down on their heads an inextinguishable flame" -Pope St.Celestine I, Council of Ephesus [/quote]

Would you not say that Worship is an expression of the Spiritus Sanctus? You have many popes to override. Even the Orthodox's worship is displeasing to the Lord.

[quote]Pope Pius VIII, Traditi Humilitati (# 4), May 24, 1829:

“Jerome used to say it this way: [b]he who eats the Lamb outside this house will perish as did those during the flood who were not with Noah in the ark[/b].”(32)



Pope Gregory XVI, Commissum divinitus (# 11), May 17, 1835:

“…[b] whoever dares to depart from the unity of Peter might understand that he no longer shares in the divine mystery…‘Whoever eats the Lamb outside of this house is unholy[/b].’”(33)



Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus (# 3), April 8, 1862:

“… [b]whoever eats of the Lamb and is not a member of the Church, has profaned[/b].”(34)
[/quote]

Even if your intentions are good, you offend the Lord if you sit outside of the house and partake in the Lamb. All schismatics who do not join in unity with the Church have unholy worship. Needless to say, this is true for heretics. And non-Christians who worship make God angry because they worship false gods and His creation, but not the Creator.

God bless,
Mikey

[Jaime]

Camster and Michael are missing the point from a liturgical point of view.

The reason that Christian (protestant) songs are not appropriate (for mass) is that they talk about the personal relationship between I (myself) and God. Also it is rare that protestant music is scripturally based.

Liturgically appropriate music is inclusive. It sings about our (the congregation) relationship with God. The only "I" in liturgically appropriate music is God. If there are lyrics about the individual person, its a direct quote from scripture.

I do not believe for a moment that music that praises God, although not liturgically appropriate, is displeasing to God. There is a place in the world for music that celebrates one's personal faith. The mass is not one of them.

[cmotherofpirl]

I am going to post this once AGAIN.
It is at the top of the debate board for a reason.

If you need a detailed explanation email Dust of Father Pontifex.



"Jun 4 2004, 10:56 AM
I know that many phatmassers are loving people who want to build bridges and stay true to the Catholic faith. However, there are those who persist in being uncharitable by callling all non-Catholics heretics.

It is true that the foundation on which they are built is of a heretical split, but those who have been brought up in those groups to do not have the formal knowledge of the Catholic Faith. Therefore they cannot reject the fullness of the faith if they have never been taught it.

So, please refrain from using that terminology. It burns bridges and it does nothing to bring them into the Church, which is the goal.

I love you all. Please pass this information to those that need it. I can't catch it all.

Fr. Pontifex

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 5 2005, 09:30 AM'] Camster and Michael are missing the point from a liturgical point of view.

The reason that Christian (protestant) songs are not appropriate (for mass) is that they talk about the personal relationship between I (myself) and God. Also it is rare that protestant music is scripturally based.

Liturgically appropriate music is inclusive. It sings about our (the congregation) relationship with God. The only "I" in liturgically appropriate music is God. If there are lyrics about the individual person, its a direct quote from scripture.

I do not believe for a moment that music that praises God, although not liturgically appropriate, is displeasing to God. There is a place in the world for music that celebrates one's personal faith. The mass is not one of them. [/quote]
No hot stuff, I get it. We agree most of the time.

Praise and worship music, especially Protestant praise and worship music is inappropriate in a Catholic setting. Liturgically appropriate music is inclusive, but not horizontally, only vertically. And the theology must be correct as well.

Most of the music is heretical. It either ascribes to the heresy of Sola fide or sola scriptura. Mostly the former. hot stuff said the same thing, only nicer. That is why it is not appropriate.



And.....this is a big and.....when the term heresy is used properly, there is nothing wrong in using it. There are intrinsic truths. If one doesn't ascribe to those truths, but is baptized and is therefore catholic, he is either a formal heretic (culpable) or a material heretic (non-culpable). The Church teaches this very clearly.

[quote]....Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.... (CCC 2089)[/quote]

[i]CIC, can. 751; Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith....[/i]

So, Mikey isn't wrong technically....he is using heresy in the context of the teaching of the Church. Heresy isn't a naughty word. It is totally accurate when applicable.

Cam

[Jaime]

[quote]Most of the music is heretical. It either ascribes to the heresy of Sola fide or sola scriptura. Mostly the former. hot stuff said the same thing, only nicer. That is why it is not appropriate.[/quote]

No

The protestant worship music is almost NEVER sola scriptura. To be sola scriptura, you would have to find a direct scriptural reference and you can't. Protestant worship music is hardly ever heretical (if ever). Protestant worship music is never appropriate for liturgies but that's as far as it goes.

Folks let's be clear, there is nothing wrong with singing "Father I Adore You", "Friends are Friends Forever" or any number of songs at youth group or prayer services outside of Mass. These songs are written to promote a personal faith.

Stating that they are heretical simply because they are written by protestants is ludicrous.

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 5 2005, 11:18 AM']
No

The protestant worship music is almost NEVER sola scriptura. To be sola scriptura, you would have to find a direct scriptural reference and you can't.  Protestant worship music is hardly ever heretical (if ever).  Protestant worship music is never appropriate for liturgies but that's as far as it goes. 

Folks let's be clear, there is nothing wrong with singing "Father I Adore You", "Friends are Friends Forever" or any number of songs at youth group or prayer services outside of Mass.  These songs are written to promote a personal faith. 

Stating that they are heretical simply because they are written by protestants is ludicrous. [/quote]
Then it is sometimes? And what about Sola Fide? That heresy applies doesn't it? Amazing Grace still comes to mind.

Cam

[Jaime]

For a song or belief to sola fide, by definition it has to be inclusive.

Amazing Grace is not an inclusive song

Amazing Grace how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like [b]me[/b]


Not heretical

The writer may very well have been a wretch. Free will.

[Cam42]

Ok, you want more....How abouts;

A Mighty Fortress is our God (Psalm 46)
All Hail the Power (Rev. 19:12-16)
Great is thy Faithfulness
Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah (Psalm 31:3)
Rescue the Perishing (Luke 14:23)

I can keep going....but I suppose that this is enough.....

Cam

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='May 5 2005, 11:25 AM'] For a song or belief to sola fide, by definition it has to be inclusive.

Amazing Grace is not an inclusive song

Amazing Grace how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like [b]me[/b]


Not heretical

The writer may very well have been a wretch.  Free will. [/quote]
Whatever....it is heretical. How about the Grace part?