Does the ecumenical movement have a future?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 3 2005, 07:00 PM']
In a way, ecumenism with Protestants remains a dialogue with Luther. It is first of all a relationship dialogue. Wanna know one reason why it's so hard for the Orthodox to return? It's because of the fourth crusade which invaded and destroyed Constantinople. There are many such cases (this probably the worst) where bad things had happened on either side and so people were just angry with each other. True ecumenism tries to first open up a door of discussion and then progress from there. [/quote]
Oh come on, the fourth Crusade, that's grasping at straws if I ever heard it. First the Crusaders didn't destroy it theysacked it and conquered it but the certianly didn't destroy it, 2nd the Pope excommunicated the entire lot of them for it, 3 that doesn't explain why they were seprerate when it happened and 4 we delt with all ofthat old garbage the the council of Florance in the 15th century, now thats just a load of huey. Are people actually shoveling that in you direction? It carp, it's just an excuse for their schism.

[Don John of Austria]

Don't forget there where plenty of Catholics defending Constantinoples walls in 1453, Venetians mainly, they died with the Emperor, its just an excuse nothing more.

[Q the Ninja]

Then you disagree with a Byzantine scholar (Ph.D.) and a Theology professor at the University of Dallas.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 3 2005, 07:12 PM'] Then you disagree with a Byzantine scholar (Ph.D.) and a Theology professor at the University of Dallas. [/quote]
Okay, woouldn't be the first time I told a PhD they where full of carp. It's funny the Byzantines themselves seemed to get over it. It is simply a load, it's like saying a Cajun doesn't like people from Massachusets becasue they are still angry about the hundred years war. It's just silly.

[Q the Ninja]

Protestants are still angry about the Inquisition (and that wasn't that bad!).

Believe me, this guy knows his stuff. He lived in Istanbul for years studying and doing work!!

[Q the Ninja]

[quote]Peter Hatlie joined the department as a visiting instructor in Fall 1996. With his Ph.D. in Byzantine History from the Department of History, Fordham University, New York, awarded in 1993, and his expertise in Byzantine, Medieval and Ottoman History, he has given courses on Greek and Roman Historians, The History of Civilization, and various history seminars.[/quote]

This was when he worked for Bilkent.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 3 2005, 07:23 PM'] Protestants are still angry about the Inquisition (and that wasn't that bad!).

Believe me, this guy knows his stuff. He lived in Istanbul for years studying and doing work!! [/quote]
You mean Protestants are still angry about what English said the Inqusition was? The Black Legend created by Elizabeth and her cronies, well I would say that is largly a load of bull also, protestants aren't angry about that, it is just an excuse to justify why they have split from the Church, an this is something I am fairly knowlegeable about, I am a convert, Protestant Clergy are common in my family, traitors need a reason, if there is no reason they make up an excuse.

[Q the Ninja]

And finally, he's (maybe was) on the U.S. National Committee for Byzantine Studies.

[url="http://www.sc.edu/bsc/usnat/memnat.htm"]http://www.sc.edu/bsc/usnat/memnat.htm[/url]

[quote]Peter J. Hatlie
Nieuwgrieks en Byzantinologie
Oude Boteringestraat 23
Rijksuniversiteit Groningen
9712 GC Groningen THE NETHERLANDS
E-Mail Address: hatlie@let.rug.nl [/quote]

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 3 2005, 06:29 PM'] You mean Protestants are still angry about what English said the Inqusition was? The Black Legend created by Elizabeth and her cronies, well I would say that is largly a load of bull also, protestants aren't angry about that, it is just an excuse to justify why they have split from the Church, an this is something I am fairly knowlegeable about, I am a convert, Protestant Clergy are common in my family, traitors need a reason, if there is no reason they make up an excuse. [/quote]
I know many aren't, but believe me, some of my friends are. They're angry about what they think happened, but point it, they're still unhappy about it.

[son_of_angels]

Personally I think the notion of an ecumenism that emphasizes anything but moral issues is suspect. Catholics and Baptists, for example, can NEVER agree on papal infallibility nor apostolic succession, but they are both against abortion. Being able to see past doctrinal differences to accomplish such goals is an important goal in the Church.
However, unity in a doctrinal and communion sense must be based on, first, doctrinal agreement, and, second, obedience to the Holy Father who, as Vatican I emphasized, holds the fulness of authority over all Christians throughout the world (read the Dogmatic Constitutions of Vatican 1, chapter 3 I think).

Therefore, unity with the orthodox, having come to unity on the first point depends on their agreeing to obey the Roman Pontiff as Vicar of Christ, Father of Christendom, and Ruler of the World. There cannot be anything but this without leaving an article of the Holy Orthodox and Catholic Faith (yes, we are orthodox, truly orthodox).

As Picard said, "Resistance Is Futile"

[Q the Ninja]

Okay, dead horse here.

Cardinal Kasper was the other one I read who said it (the fourth crusade is an issue). I just remembered that.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 3 2005, 07:31 PM'] I know many aren't, but believe me, some of my friends are. They're angry about what they think happened, but point it, they're still unhappy about it. [/quote]
Don'ttake this the wrong way but if your friends are so ignorant of reality thatthey are angery about something that never even occured, well itis time to distance your self fromthat type of idiocy.

As for UD's staff well, if it's not Wilhelmsen it'scarp!! ( best scotish accent there for those of you who get it)

[Q the Ninja]

I've educated them some...the point is, I run into it a lot. Come to find out, in our dialogues it was all misconception, which goes to prove my original point, ecumenism just points out misconceptions half the time.

[guardsman]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='May 3 2005, 07:34 PM']

Therefore, unity with the orthodox, having come to unity on the first point depends on their agreeing to obey the Roman Pontiff as Vicar of Christ, Father of Christendom, and Ruler of the World.  [/quote]
Well, I'm thinking this type of statement would tend to be a HUGE obstacle to any type of ecumenical movement. Vicar of Christ-I agree with this one, definitely Christ's earthly representative as the Head of The Church, at least the visible one in human terms. Father of Christendom? I guess I haven't heard that one before, and if this is an official Catholic term, I'm sure there is a very well-defined meaning behind this title, but I believe most protestants would have a very hard time with that one. Ruler of the World? Also never heard that before. I have heard Satan called the ruler of this world. My point being, some titles are part of the problem. Protestants, many of them anyway, will not accept any authority except their own (many times wrong) interpretation of what the Bible is saying. And they disregard Sacred Tradition. Seriously, is Ruler of the World an official Catholic title for the Pope?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='May 3 2005, 07:34 PM'] Personally I think the notion of an ecumenism that emphasizes anything but moral issues is suspect. Catholics and Baptists, for example, can NEVER agree on papal infallibility nor apostolic succession, but they are both against abortion. Being able to see past doctrinal differences to accomplish such goals is an important goal in the Church.
However, unity in a doctrinal and communion sense must be based on, first, doctrinal agreement, and, second, obedience to the Holy Father who, as Vatican I emphasized, holds the fulness of authority over all Christians throughout the world (read the Dogmatic Constitutions of Vatican 1, chapter 3 I think).

Therefore, unity with the orthodox, having come to unity on the first point depends on their agreeing to obey the Roman Pontiff as Vicar of Christ, Father of Christendom, and Ruler of the World. There cannot be anything but this without leaving an article of the Holy Orthodox and Catholic Faith (yes, we are orthodox, truly orthodox).

As Picard said, "Resistance Is Futile" [/quote]
I like you.