Donna Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 This topic came up between a good Catholic and myself. We differ in opinion about the answer. My source was written in 1895; anything current out there? It's apropo for our suffering brethren need our prayers this month and always... **All quotes taken from "Charity For The Suffering Souls" by Rev John Nageleisen. (TAN books) unless otherwise stated. ""Our Divine Redeemer exhorts us, "Make unto you friends of the mammon of iniquity, that when you shall fail, they may receive you into everlasting dwellings." (Luke 16: 9). The souls of the faithful whom we deliver from the depths of misery and lead to supreme bliss by the means of the "mammon of iniquity", become our most grateful friends and incessantly implore God to shower upon us His choicest blessings and bounties. We cannot but believe that they will remember us in heaven with the greatest gratitude." (Page 275) Gotta go. Baby time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 Yes, after they become part of the Church Triumphant (they get to heaven). At least that's my opinion. I wouldn't think that souls in Purgatory could pray for us though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Gus Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 The Church Suffering cannot pray for us, nor for themselves, that is why it is so important to pray for them. And as an added bonus, when you pray for someone in purgatory, their journey into heaven is sped up, and when they get there, they can repay the favour by praying for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 I'm all about the prayer of St. Gertrude the Great! Eternal Father, I offer up the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus Christ, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the holy souls in purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal churchm those in my own home and within my family. Amen. "Our Lord told St. Gertrude the Great that the above prayer would release 1,000 souls from Purgatory each time it is said. The prayer was later extended to include sliving sinners as well. The Approval and Recommendation below does NOT include this extension. Approval and recommendation (sgd.) M. Cardinal Pahiarca at Libson, Portugal, on March 4, 1936." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted November 8, 2003 Author Share Posted November 8, 2003 (edited) OK, agreed, as written in the first post, that the suffering souls remember their benefactors once they're in heaven. Here's Fr. Nagaleisen again: "The Suffering Souls in Purgatory do not wait until they arrive in heaven to give evidence of their gratitude to their benefactors. Even while suffering the most dreadful torments they are anxious to return their charity; and hence they pray incessantly for the apiritual and temporal welfare of those who succored them." (p. 276) He then goes on to state the doctrine of Thomas Aquinas, key points of which are: *Being in a state of suffering they are in a position to receive, rather than give help. * They can no longer aquire merit, nor can they effectually intercede for others. * The Suffering Souls are wholly occupied with their torments. * Deprived (temporarily) of the Beatific Vision, there is no awareness of our needs, hence they cannot intercede. "But as the Church has not dogmatically declared for or against this doctrine, the question, "Can the souls in Purgatory while in the state of suffering, intercede for us with God?" is an open one. Theologians are divided on it [as of this writing in 1895], and the Church tolerates the opinions of both sides. "And if we ask the religious sentiment of Catholics in general, this question is confidently answered with, "Yes!" Most commentators of St. Thomas declare that his doctrine does not conflict with this opinion." (p. 277) (KMS, me, too) Edited November 8, 2003 by Donna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 As to the question, I should have answered that first before posting the prayer. Mea culpa. I know that the souls in purgatory cannot pray for themselves, but I don't really understand why they wouldn't be able to pray for others. Both arguments make sense. I'm really not sure on this one. Theo? Fr. Pontifex? (and all other seminarians and priests we have?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted November 8, 2003 Author Share Posted November 8, 2003 (edited) St. Thomas states that it is God's will that the inferior should be assisted by the superior. The souls in Purgatory, because of their captivity are in an inferiour state compared to ours. But Fr. Nagaleisen points out that they are also in a state superior to ours, since they cannot sin; hence doesn't it follow that they can pray for us? He also says: They can be our intercessors as the saints in heaven because the suffering souls are in "the grace and favor of God". And he cites: Gregory of Valencia maintains that the souls in Purgatory pray for the faithful in general, but esp. for those most dear to them on earth. St. Robert Bellarmine, Suarz, Gotti, Jungmann "and many others are of this same opinion." The renowned theologian Scheeban says in part that: * The souls in Purgatory, being confirmed in charity renders it not only probable, but evident that they do present petitions to God on behalf of of the Church Militant, and esp. in favor of their benefactors. * If not so, their charity "would be inert". * As these souls are no less friends of God than those on earth, "it would be a deflection in the order of grace if their charity were disregarded and unrequited in the very acts which are especially pleasing to God." * "This deflection becomes still more apparent if the communion of saints is taken into consideration". * This unity requires that each living member of this body, each in their own way, shall contribute by his ministrations to the welfare of the whole body..." * Thus that no living member shall be solely a recipient of the "benefactions of the rest." (p. 278-9) I think this is beautiful. Does any one here ever ask their deceased parent or friend or grandma who gave them strawberries and cream and whom they adored, and whom knew them and tried to set them them on the right road... to pray for them? Edited November 8, 2003 by Donna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 (edited) FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA, by Dr. Ludwig Ott, p. 323 "The Souls in Purgatory can intercede for other members of the Mystical Body. As the poor souls are members of the Mystical Body of Christ, the question whether they can intercede for other suffering souls or the the Faithful on earth must be answered in the affirmative. Consequently, one must agree with Suarez and St. Bellarmine that it is possible and permissible to appeal to the poor souls for their intercession." (there's more, but the answer is emphatically YES.) Edited November 8, 2003 by Katholikos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Gus Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 Wow, we're getting a lot of different answers here. This demands virtue, and calls us to learn more about our faith. Praise be to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted November 8, 2003 Author Share Posted November 8, 2003 Ooooo, scary! I cannot vie with Ott. (Likos, you must be a Scandanavian angel to me... Let's have some lefsa!) And whiskey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 My Catholic Prayer booklet has a Novena to the Holy Souls in Purgatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeodatus Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 The current Treasury of Indulgences (Enchiridion Indulgentiarum) has a number of prayers for the dead, but none specifically addressing the Holy Souls themselves. The Catechism says, 'Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.' (no. 958). That seems to imply that the Holy Souls can intercede for us, and that this intercession becomes effective presumably when our intercession for them completes their purgatory, i.e. when they get into heaven. I mean they can't help themselves, but they can still pray for us, and when they get into heaven, their intercession becomes more effective. November is the month of the Holy Souls, and I found these prayers in which we pray for them AND ask for their intercession on our behalf: 1. O holy souls, as one truly devoted to you, I promise never to forget you and continually to pray to the Most High for your release. I beseech you to respond to this offering which I make to you, and to obtain for me, from God, with Whom you are so powerful on behalf of the living, that I may be free from all dangers of souls and body. I beg both for myself and for my relations and benefactors, friends and enemies, pardon for our sins, and the grace of perseverance in good, whereby we may save our souls. Obtain for us peace of heart; assist us in all our actions; succor us promptly in all our spiritual and temporal needs; console and defend us in our dangers. Pray for our Holy Father, the Pope; for the exaltation of Holy Church; for peace between nations; for Christian rulers; and for tranquility among peoples; and grant that we may one day all rejoice together in Paradise. Amen. 2. O most compassionate Jesus, have mercy on the souls detained in Purgatory, for whose redemption Thou didst take upon Thyself our nature and endure a bitter death. Mercifully hear their sighs, look with pity upon the tears which they now shed before Thee, and by virtue of Thy Passion, release them from the pains due to their sins. O most merciful Jesus, let Thy Precious Blood reach down into Purgatory and refresh and revive the captive souls who suffer there. Stretch out to them Thy strong right hand, and bring them forth into the place of refreshment, light and peace. Amen. O blessed souls! We have prayed for thee! We entreat thee, who art so dear to God, and who art certain of never losing Him, to pray for us poor miserable sinners who are in danger of being damned and of losing God forever. Amen. (Prayers excerpted from Schouppe, Father F.X., Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints. Rockford: TAN, 1991. "Appendix 3: Prayers for the Poor Souls", pp. 413-427. Imprimatur, Nihil Obstat.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 Ooooo, scary! I cannot vie with Ott. (Likos, you must be a Scandanavian angel to me... Let's have some lefsa!) And whiskey. God bless the soul of Dr. Ott for giving us this treasury of Catholic Dogma! I can't live without it. Also of immeasurable help is Henry Denzinger's The Sources of Catholic Dogma. These two books are "never fail" sources of Catholic Truth. I'm coming over for lefsa (first time I've ever tried it) and whiskey. Get the glasses out! You are precious, Donna. God bless and Mary keep, JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 Thank you for posting this Donna! I am so grateful. I wasn't aware that the holy Souls in Purgatory could intercede for us. But then, it would make sense, since we can intercede, and we are in fact in a WORSE state then them (in that we aren't necessarily guaranteed heaven at the end of our stay ). My prayer family just grew! Wow! We MUST pray for them. Please, let us have dUSt "pin" that prayer up. I always forget it. But it's so simple, and it releases 1000 suffering souls! Thank you again Donna! Pray for me. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 Thanks to both Likos and Donna! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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