Rom 8:30

[Briguy]

Hi Guys, Hey Thess. How you been??

I only have time for a short response. Guardsman, I do not disagree with really with what you said except for the fact that there is a point where a person is saved, not just some state of being saved. There are several scriptures which use Saved as in past tense. You can't be in a race unless you start the race. Once saved Jesus anchors the soul and there is no way to free that anchor, it is "sure and steadfast". If a saved persons gets fooled by Satan and denies Jesus, the anchor has to hold. Why would we think for a minute that we could not be deceived by Satan even to the point of doubt, belief change, etc... There is a war going on and Satan is powerful. He can fool a Christian as well as non Christian. Jesus will not not abandon one of His own, He will hold tight to whom he saved because He saved them forever. Sometimes we want to rank our sins and our works. If I just doubt, maybe I am OK but if I say that Jesus is just one way to Heaven then I've gone too far and he throws me into the fire. No, I don't see the God of the Bible like that. we may say if I obey in this way and that then that is enough works to show God I am His. No, wrong again, God knows already, you can't prove to Him anything. More to come----

Thess. Here is your verses in context:

[26] Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
[27] What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
[29] Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
[30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
[31] Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
[32] Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
[33] But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
[34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
[35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
[36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
[37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
[38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
[39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Jesus is teaching a lesson here. Read the whole thing and see the imagery. To deny in this sense is the rejecting of god's saving power and Grace. It does not deal with one whom belongs to God and then denies. No, Peter never lost his salvation. He did see the misery of going against the one he loved, so have many other believers who have doubted, feared, and have been fooled by the god of this world.

In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

Brian,

You have an amzing ability to compartmentalize each scripture so that it has nothing to do with another that is clearly related. You so interprut scripture by a very wrong superimposed tradition that you cannot see your way out. You start out with OSAS being true and then interprut everything as if it is without proving that it is. Very sad.



I see you avoided my other question. Answer.

[guardsman]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 6 2005, 07:42 AM']

I only have time for a short response. Guardsman, I do not disagree with really with what you said except for the fact that there is a point where a person is saved, not just some state of being saved. [/quote]
You're right, there is a point when you are saved. You are saved when you FINISH the race. Faithful to the end. (Of course, the real point when we were saved was when our Lord died on the cross, as the Perfect Sacrifice. But we do have to cooperate a little bit, right?) So OSAS is true, but not the way some people think. What are we being saved from? Eternal damnation and seperation from God. This does not happen while we are still alive on earth. It happens upon our death. That is when we are saved, at the end of the race. So if you are saved (from eternal damnation and seperation from God) you are always saved. For eternity. Once Saved, Always Saved. So I guess we agree. Your timing is just off.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Dave' date='Apr 28 2005, 01:58 PM'] Adam, somewhere in the reference section here in the phorum there's a link to an essay entitled "Rescuing Rome from the Reformers." [/quote]
you rang?

[b]--[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20040227104740/http://www.lumengentleman.com/content.asp?file=rescuing_romans"]Rescuing Romans from the Reformers[/url][/b], and[b]
--[url="http://catholic-legate.com/dialogues/rescuingromans.html"]Rescuing Romans from the Reformers [i]Again[/i][/url][/b]

[Briguy]

Hi Thess. I thought that your question was just to make a point, not to be answered. I answer F. OK, I know you didn't have an "F" but I needed my own answer which would be, "Why is my pastor quoting parts of verses with no context, He must have a pre-dertermined agenda he is trying to prove" I would say something like that. Thess. I have said over and over that most people from every denomination want to post 1 verse at a time or maybe 2 and think it proves their point. I have taken every verse given me by others on what they say is losing salvation and offered another resonable, usually better interpretation based on context, history, logic, etc... On the other side when I present scripture on the OSAS side it usually meets with a counter of other verses and not a direct interpretation of the verse. Tell me which of the partial verses above you would like me to explain and I will do so. I may then give you some verses to explain as well.

Guardsman, The thing we must dertermine is when "eternal life" begins. We must turn to scripture for that answer. Eternal has to be forever or it is not eternal, right? I will make sure we agree on that before I go on. Thanks again for the nice discussion.

In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 9 2005, 08:01 AM'] Hi Thess. I thought that your question was just to make a point, not to be answered. I answer F.  OK, I know you didn't have an "F" but I needed my own answer which would be, "Why is my pastor quoting parts of verses with no context, He must have a pre-dertermined agenda he is trying to prove"  I would say something like that. Thess. I have said over and over that most people from every denomination want to post 1 verse at a time or maybe 2 and think it proves their point. I have taken every verse given me by others on what they say is losing salvation and offered another resonable, usually better interpretation based on context, history, logic, etc...  On the other side when I present scripture on the OSAS side it usually meets with a counter of other verses and not a direct interpretation of the verse. Tell me which of the partial verses above you would like me to explain and I will do so. I may then give you some verses to explain as well.

Guardsman, The thing we must dertermine is when "eternal life" begins. We must turn to scripture for that answer. Eternal has to be forever or it is not eternal, right? I will make sure we agree on that before I go on. Thanks again for the nice discussion.

In Christ,
Brian [/quote]
Brian,

I don't see a contextual problem in the passage about denying Christ. It is exactly as I have spoken. Jesus is talking about how God cares for us. Thus if we do deny him before men, not recongizing his providence in our lives, he will deny us. Peter at the time of his denials had rejected Christ and his saving plan. He no longer had faith in it or he would not have denied him.

By the way, better is in the eye's of the beholder. We all, even you brian color our reading of scripture with "traditions" that have been taught to us. We as Catholics recognize and admit this. I doudt I will get you to do the same.

As for predetermined agendas, I've run in to alot of that regarding OSAS dogma. You answer was not completely unexpected.

Having said that Brian, I am fine. Seems you are doing well and I am thankful for that. I do hope someday we will be able to get off this merry-go-round if you know what I mean.

Peace.

Edited May 9, 2005 by thessalonian

[Briguy]

Hey Thess. Sometimes I think the Merry-go-round is the reason we keep searching and growing and finding answers. It is a challange to discuss these issues with the folks here because they, you included, have a lot of knowledge and wisdom. You know that I am not among the Christian crowd who thinks that Catholics are not Christians. I believe that any person who has placed their trust, through faith, in Christ is saved regardless where they worship and fellowship. Certainly there are church goers in every church building who are not Christians, I think that is across the board. Certain denominations may have higher percentages but only God knows that for sure.

Thess., here is the problem I see with the verses from Matthew we have discussed. At what point does Jesus deny us before the father. If we deny Him just before death? What if like Peter we deny just for a few hours. Are you saying at the point of denial we lose salvation but at the point of re-faith we gain it back? That sounds like a salvation yo-yo for a new or weaker Christian, which Paul says there are. Can you really see God like that Thess.? - tossing around salvation like a beach ball at a concert? No, these verses could have a couple explanations but losing salvation is not the lesson or intended meaning.

In Christ,
Brian

[Brother Adam]

This is a problem only for fundamentalists because they see the whole compass of salvation simply in a single prayer, whereas the Bible, over and over again, disagrees with them. But as Thess said, if you compartmentalize verses, you can make anything happen in the scriptures. Mormons love the scriptures!

Everything about OSAS denies both free will and the New Covenant. It is determinalistic. The fear that salvation hangs in the balance of a persons every move is false, but I can understand why you would think that when you deny adopted sonship through baptism.

To you salvation is simple "I said a prayer (believed in Jesus), therefore I am going to go to heaven". Salvation indeed is different then this. Salvation is a covenant that changes God's family tree. Initial salvation frees us from original sin and opens us to grace and life (Rom 8:24; Eph 2:5,8; 2 tim 1:9), We then continue to fight sin in our lives, we have not been completely liberated from sin (salvation) as believers and still have free will. While we are adopted sons, God is not a tyrrant, we can still freely choose to become the prodigal son. The story of the prodigal son only makes sense when you consider that he was the fathers son, before our initial salvation we are not the fathers son. (Phil 2:12, 1 Pet 1:9). Then at the end of our earthly life if we are adopted as children of God, and if we die in a state grace (Mt 10:22; Mt 24:13; Mk 8:25, Acts 15:11, Rom 5:9-10, 13:11, 1 Cor 3:15, 5:5, Heb 9:28).

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 10 2005, 07:38 AM'] Hey Thess. Sometimes I think the Merry-go-round is the reason we keep searching and growing and finding answers. It is a challange to discuss these issues with the folks here because they, you included, have a lot of knowledge and wisdom. You know that I am not among the Christian crowd who thinks that Catholics are not Christians. I believe that any person who has placed their trust, through faith, in Christ is saved regardless where they worship and fellowship. Certainly there are church goers in every church building who are not Christians, I think that is across the board. Certain denominations may have higher percentages but only God knows that for sure.

Thess., here is the problem I see with the verses from Matthew we have discussed. At what point does Jesus deny us before the father. If we deny Him just before death? What if like Peter we deny just for a few hours. Are you saying at the point of denial we lose salvation but at the point of re-faith we gain it back? That sounds like a salvation yo-yo for a new or weaker Christian, which Paul says there are. Can you really see God like that Thess.? - tossing around salvation like a beach ball at a concert? No, these verses could have a couple explanations but losing salvation is not the lesson or intended meaning.

In Christ,
Brian [/quote]
Brian,

I don't believe I ever said Peter lost his salvation. If I did show me. I said he fell from grace. Those who fall from grace can be restored to it by grace. It's not a yo-yo at all. I only see one place in scripture where Peter "fell from grace". Is that he only time in his life that he "fell from grace". I don't know. But salvation is a walk rather than a talk. We must continue down the path of salvation and a denial of Christ is a denial that we are on that path and thus must be restored. Peter most certainly was not among the lost. Yet I suspect that by that campfire if you had held out a pamphlet saying "Are you saved" he would have spat on it and thrown it in the mud. Fortunately the gaze of Christ turned his way and peared in to his heart, exposing his sin or he would have quite possibly followed the path of Judas. God is merciful to whom he chooses to be merciful to. Thank God for the grace of repentence.

Blessings

[cmotherofpirl]

St Paul likens it to running a race, you get to the end when you die.
OSAS says the starting point IS the finish line of the race.
Saying a few words does not guarantee salvation.
Even demons can quote scripture.

Bptism justifys us, a journey of sanctification can lead us to salvation.


Nobody is assured salvation until we actually meet St Pete at the gate and he lets us in.

[thessalonian]

I should note as well Brian that a part of your reasoning that our system would be like a yo-yo is your lack of understanding of mortal and venial sin which are quite biblical and your lack of understanding of the sacraments and their effect on sin. i.e. the Eucharist forgives venial sin and helps us gaurd against serious sin. From the protestant perspective of stealing a cookie being equal to robbing a bank, I can see where you might think we are always going in and out of grace. It is not however a logical or biblical perspective.

Blessings

Edited May 10, 2005 by thessalonian

[Briguy]

Hi thess. I guess I jumped the gun and made an assupmtion. Please explain to me what "fell from grace" means and what happens when you die in that "fell from grace" status. Say, for example, after denying Christ the third time Peter got run over by a Chariot and died. What would happen to his soul?

MOP, I do not agree that OSAS says that the starting line is the finish of the race. The starting line or the point of salvation is when one enters the race or in another of Paul's examples when you begin "the fight". In boxing there is no match until you enter the ring. Once in the ring the fight ensues. The fight that is between old nature and new nature. Anyway you can't run a race or fight a fight that you have not started. The point is that Jesus says believe is to have eternal life, therfore logic would dictate that that is when the race or fight begins AND that eternal can only mena forever and so the eternal life that begins with the onset of the race/fight continues forever. You must understand that it is not winning that is the goal in Paul's examples it is to pun with perseverence, meaning to keep going even when things are tough, even if you fail and sin, to keep going. We fight the good fight, we don't win the good fight. Paul encouages us to keep up the effort. Paul knew that there was ultimate victory in Jesus. Why would he possible say that he was torn whether to be in Heaven now or continue the fight on earth. Would he say that for a second if there was any chance he could lose his salvation?? Think about that very carefully. Would Paul risk his salvation? No, he would not. He knew he was saved forever, bought with the price of Christ's blood and sealed forver, therefore to stay on the earth was OK because he felt he had work to do and knew 100% that he was bound for Heaven no matter what.

Also, on Baptism, I have said this over and over with little response (maybe not on the board) that millions of people have been baptized as infants and it has no effect on them throughout their life. They never hardly give God a thought for the next 70 years or so after their baptism. How could the act have so much power and make so little difference to millions throughout history. No, MOP, Baptism does not justify us, faith is what "proves" rightousness, not an act, no matter the good will that is intended in the act. Infant Baptism is fine as a promise of faithful aprenting but has nothing to do with justification. That is what the Bible argues anyway. Think of Abraham and Paul's example of Abraham in Romans.

more later,
In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

[quote]Hi thess. I guess I jumped the gun and made an assupmtion. Please explain to me what "fell from grace" means and what happens when you die in that "fell from grace" status. Say, for example, after denying Christ the third time Peter got run over by a Chariot and died. What would happen to his soul?[/quote]

Oh, if he in fact willfully denied Christ, and it sure looks like he did, at that if he died moment he would have entered the eternal lake of fire. But salvation, being a process and God being a God of second chances who forgives anything if we turn to him, Peter was allowed the opportunity by his mercy to return to a life of faith and trust by God's grace.

The difference in your and my thinking is that you equate salvation with being saved (which is our state of grace). We however link them but they are not equivalent. Salvation is the persevernce in the state of grace until death. It is a process, started out be a fully justifying and sanctifying event called baptism.

Hope that helps.

[thessalonian]

[quote]Also, on Baptism, I have said this over and over with little response (maybe not on the board) that millions of people have been baptized as infants and it has no effect on them throughout their life. They never hardly give God a thought for the next 70 years or so after their baptism[/quote]

Lotsa hand waving going on here. Do you have statistics on what people think and don't think? I have seen conversions by people who had little upbringing in the faith, yet were always keenly aware of the fact that they were baptized. Further your statistics mean alot to you because you hold to a doctrine that says Once Saved Always Saved. i.e. they were baptized, they are in if what we say about baptism is true. While we believe that upbringing has alot to do with protecting children against the world that strives to stip them of their faith. Otherwise Psalm 78 means nothing. Faith must be nutured and it must grow. It is not an on off switch but a potentiometer, i.e. it can be brightened and dimmed. The Apostles had faith, yet Jesus said "if you had the faith of a mustard seed you could move a mountain". Their faith needed to grow. That a large share of those baptized as infants don't retain the faith is not proof of anything except that "the devil prowls about like a lion seeking the ruin of souls".

Blessings

Edited May 11, 2005 by thessalonian

[Briguy]

MOP,
Here are some verses that explain why I believe eternal life starts at the moment one has saving faith. The very moment they are washed clean by the blood of Jesus.

John 10
[25] Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
[26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
[30] I and my Father are one.

John 17
[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
[2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1 John 5
[9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Thess., I agree that upbringing has very much to do with it. That is the point. As Christians we are to raise our children in the ways of the Lord. The act of baptism means very little compared to Christian upbringing. Lets say that we have two children. One is not Baptized as an infant but has parents that attend church, teach the child about Jesus, how to pray etc... The other child is baptized as an infant but has parents that just attend church on holidays and special events. They don't prat at meals or read the bible at all. Which child will most likely live a life that is pleasing to God, i.e. come to a place of saving faith and service to God.
I realize how obvious this is. The point is clear. In real life Baptism does little, infants or in adults. Placing ones trust in the blood of Christ is what saves. Baptism as a parents commitment or as an outward sign of Faith do not save, they are good, don't get me wrong, but they do not save. Baptism has less significance today then it did in the early church. I will let you respond before I continue.

In Christ,
Brian