Anna Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 (edited) not to be too sarcastic or anything, but I thought you guys said that the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church and that it was infallible.. how then can there be so many problems like these? undercover, On another thread, we clearly described for you the difference between infallibility (free from erroneous teaching) and impeccibility (free from sin) and we further explained to you that the Church's infallibility is limited to her authoritative, universally instructed Teachings on Faith and Morals. People, Catholic or otherwise, sin. As do priests, as do bishops, as do popes. Even the Pope goes to Confession regularly! None of us is impeccible. Again, I will stress, our conduct is not infallible; our Church's Teachings are infallible. Two other sources of infallibility are: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition...This "trinity" (if you will) cannot be separated or divided, and cannot contradict one another. That is what is meant when we say the Church is infallible. Pax Christi. <>< Edited November 9, 2003 by Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 Besides, over 50% of American Protestants (according to Josh McDowell, a Protestant himself), who claim to be Christian... have not recieved Christ as their Savior. Hasn't the Catholic Church gone through problems like these before, on and off during the centuries? What does Josh McDowell mean, "50% of those who claim to be Christian have not received Christ as their Savior"? Is he referring to Catholic and Orthodox Christians? Because we do not "get saved" by "accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior" through the unbiblical practice of answering an "altar call" as some Protestants claim we should? It's not that we don't "receive Christ as our Savior." It's just that there is a whole lot more to "salvation" than an instantaneous, single, emotional moment. For example, we answer the "altar call" of the priest and receive Christ as our Savior every Sunday --- some of us every day -- in Holy Communion! Did Josh McD explain what he meant? Paz y bien, Jay (Katholikos) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 What does Josh McDowell mean, "50% of those who claim to be Christian have not received Christ as their Savior"? Is he referring to Catholic and Orthodox Christians? Because we do not "get saved" by "accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior" through the unbiblical practice of answering an "altar call" as some Protestants claim we should? It's not that we don't "receive Christ as our Savior." It's just that there is a whole lot more to "salvation" than an instantaneous, single, emotional moment. For example, we answer the "altar call" of the priest and receive Christ as our Savior every Sunday --- some of us every day -- in Holy Communion! Did Josh McD explain what he meant? Paz y bien, Jay (Katholikos) I believe he was refering to Protestants. He's Josh McDowell...basically, I think what he was trying to say was. They claim to be Christian, but don't fully accept Christ as being a Savior or Son of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Why do they call it an "altar call?" Where is the altar? What is the sacrifice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Why do they call it an "altar call?" Where is the altar? What is the sacrifice? I wonder that myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undercover Posted November 10, 2003 Author Share Posted November 10, 2003 I wonder that myself. Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 (edited) Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. Wrong. Christ is the sacrifice, which is the Eucharist, upon the Altar. He's not the Altar itself. The question is, where is the altar? If a church doesn't have one, and makes an "Altar call"? Edited November 10, 2003 by Paladin D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undercover Posted November 10, 2003 Author Share Posted November 10, 2003 Wrong. Christ is the sacrifice, which is the Eucharist, upon the Altar. He's not the Altar itself. The question is, where is the altar? If a church doesn't have one, and makes an "Altar call"? I was answering the "what is the sacrifice" part of it. Wow you guys are quick to call me "Wrong". The alter call is the call to accept Christ's sacrifice as the free gift to redeem us from our sins. it's more of a metaphor.. there doesn't have to be an actual altar. It's just a time where the basic gospel is supplied and people can agree to accept it, and accept Christ as their savior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Gus Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Wow you guys are quick to call me "Wrong". You mean Paladin is quick to call you wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undercover Posted November 11, 2003 Author Share Posted November 11, 2003 yes, i apologize for generalizing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 (edited) I was answering the "what is the sacrifice" part of it. Wow you guys are quick to call me "Wrong". I was refering to the "Altar" specifically. So when you quoted me, I believed you were refering to the "Altar". A simple misunderstanding. Edited November 11, 2003 by Paladin D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 undercover, In the Catholic Faith, the Faith handed down from the Apostles, the sacrifice was real, actual, and tangible, peformed upon a real, actual, and tangible altar. They didn't have symbolic altar calls, where folks came up and went through motions of "receiving" an invisible free gift. The Gift, freely given, is Christ's Body and Blood, offered upon a real altar, just as in the Jewish Faith of old, a Lamb would be slain upon an altar as a sin offering to the Father. Only, no lamb could ever wash away the sins of men, nor could even the blood of man...No, only A Divine Lamb could be offered to the Father in atonement for the sins of mankind! And Jesus Christ, on the night He was betrayed...offered that Sacrifice and instructed His Apostles to continue in this manner. The apostles never taught that this was a sentimental or symbolic gesture, as many protestants believe. Reading St. Augustine or Ignatius of Antioch should clear that right up. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Wrong. Christ is the sacrifice, which is the Eucharist, upon the Altar. He's not the Altar itself. The question is, where is the altar? If a church doesn't have one, and makes an "Altar call"? Actually Paladin, Christ is both the Sacrifice and the Altar . . . we reverence the altar a symbol of Christ and the place where Christ is made Really and Substantially Present. A small clarification, and I get what you're saying . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 (edited) Actually Paladin, Christ is both the Sacrifice and the Altar . . . we reverence the altar a symbol of Christ and the place where Christ is made Really and Substantially Present. A small clarification, and I get what you're saying . . . Oh ok. So it isn't a liturgal (TYPO) abuse if one is to bow before the Altar, when the Tabernacle is off to the side? Edited November 11, 2003 by Paladin D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 The altar isn't Christ. We may bow to the altar, but we MUST genuflect to Christ in the tabernacle. Pax Christi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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