Questions

[Undercover]

I've got a few questions, concise answers are requested, with Biblical backing if necessary..

1. My old room-mate said a few things - , that Mary didn't die but ascended to heaven, also he said that Satan was slain when Christ died (so people shouldn't worry about Satan or demons), are these common Catholic beliefs and if so, where do they come from?

2. Where does the idea of confirmation come from?

guh, it's late, I'll think of some more later..

[Uncle Gus]

Mary dying hmmm, now, I can't say that I am speaking authoritatively here, because I'm going from memory. But it's not that she didn't die, everyone dies, but she was assumed into heaven body and soul, before the corruption of decay could set in. This way she would forever remain the Spotless Ark.

The idea that we shouldn't worry about Satan is complete trash. Satan has been given reign over this world for a time. To quote somewhat of a cliché, "the greatest thing that Satan has achieved is to convince people that he doesn't exist." The Bible is full of "be on your guard against the enemy" type comments. To say that we shouldn't worry about the enemy is, forgive me, entirely ridiculous. You can be quite sure that it is not Catholic teaching.

[Good Friday]

1. When the Dogma of the Assumption was declared, the Pope said simply that Mary was assumed into Heaven. He didn't say whether or not she died. Some have theorized that she did not die, some have theorized that she did but was immediately resurrected by Jesus and assumed into Heaven. We will probably not know which of these actually happened until we get to Heaven and can ask her and Jesus ourselves.

2. Your friend is way off on the not worrying about Satan and demons thing. We shouldn't worry about them, per se, as if they can win against us. We should know as Christians that if we put our trust in Christ, they will not win. But we realize that they are very real and very much alive, and we pray that they will not have influence over us. Pope Leo XIII, a relatively recent Pope, even wrote a prayer to St. Michael against demonic influence.

3. I'm not sure exactly where Confirmation comes from, though I'm pretty sure it's related to the concept of "Baptism in the Spirit." I do know that it's been practiced since the beginning of the Church. The Roman Rite of the Catholic Church calls it Confirmation, but the Eastern Rites of the Church call it Chrismation (as do the Eastern Orthodox, who are not Catholic). Confirmation was practiced in the early Church along with the Sacrament of Baptism and Eucharist, making up three initiatory Sacraments. These Sacraments are still called the Sacraments of Initiation.

[kdewolf2]

I think there's something in the Apocalypse about Satan being constrained during the thousand years, after which he will be released to wreak havoc and draw as many souls away from God as possible. I assume that the thousand year reign of Christ spoken of in the Apocalypse is taking place now in his Church. However, even if Satan can do comparatively little in the meantime he can still tempt us and seduce us away from God through the appeal of sin, but we always have all the grace we need to resist.

[Monkenstein]

Well so far it looks like lots of your questions were answered, might I add though that you did ask a lot of questions that are a bit difficult to answer Biblically, because Mary's assumption and Confirmation are Church tradition, mind you that the Church is protected and guided by the Holy Spirit....

But Confirmation is rooted Biblically....in the Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 2, it talks about a time soon after the Ascension, when the Twelve, and many others were in a room, hidding and praying for help...during this time a power wind came into the room, and the Holy Spirit Decended apon the Twelve and the many others in the room at that time...anointing them with the many gifts he has for them....

Now as Catholics we believe that that event, known as Pentecost, was the first Confirmation ceremony, the Holy coming down to those asking for Him, praying for Him, and whom the Holy Spirit see's ready...and that practice continued in the Catholic Church through the Apostalic Sessesion....

I hope that continues to help answer your questions....

Shalom

[Norseman82]

But Confirmation is rooted Biblically....in the Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 2, it talks about a time soon after the Ascension, when the Twelve, and many others were in a room, hidding and praying for help...during this time a power wind came into the room, and the Holy Spirit Decended apon the Twelve and the many others in the room at that time...anointing them with the many gifts he has for them....

Now as Catholics we believe that that event, known as Pentecost, was the first Confirmation ceremony, the Holy coming down to those asking for Him, praying for Him, and whom the Holy Spirit see's ready...and that practice continued in the Catholic Church through the Apostalic Sessesion....

There is also a verse in Hebrews regarding the "laying on of hands" to receive the Holy Spirit.

[Katholikos]

From the Our Sunday Visitor Catholic Encyclopedia, Father Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Ph.D., S.T.L., Editor:

QUOTE

CONFIRMATION, SACRAMENT OF

A sacrament instituted by Christ in promising to send the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:15-21). We find this fulfilled in the Pentecost event (Acts 2), and after Peter proclaims the basic gospel message, the people moved by it ask. "What shall we do?" Peter responds, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:37-38).

This suggests a twofold aspect of Christian Initiation -- Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and the Spirit given in Confirmation. In Acts 8 and 19, we have scriptural witness to a rite after Baptism, the laying on of hands, which gives the Holy

Spirit. In the early Church, it was difficult to distinguish between the sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist) because they were administered by the bishop as a continuous rite on Holy Saturday to adult catechumens. END QUOTE

(The article continues with historical information about the way the sacrament was administered in the East and West.)

-----------------------

The Catholic Church was unified for the first thousand years of Christianity. The date usually given for the Orthodox split is 1054, though the rift was not complete until shortly before the Deformation, which occurred in 1517 et seq. These two most ancient Churches -- the Catholic and the Orthodox -- offer the same sacrifice and celebrate the same seven sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance (Confession), Holy Orders (Ordination), Marriage, and Anointing of the Sick.

The Catholic Church did not learn Confirmation from the New Testament, but was taught it by the Apostles before the NT was ever written.

The NT is based upon the Catholic Church, not vice versa.

Welcome to phatmass! Got questions? We've got answers!

Pax tecum (peace be with you),

JMJ Likos

Edited November 7, 2003 by Katholikos

[Undercover]

ok, then maybe it would help to explain what exactly goes on during confirmation. I know I've talked to some people who were raised Catholic or whatever and said they just did it because they had to, and it made their parents happy or whatever, and they didn't really like it..

And one guy I knew went through it because his girlfriend was Catholic, but he said it was good and is continuing his faith (as far as I know).

[Jake Huether]

ok, then maybe it would help to explain what exactly goes on during confirmation.  I know I've talked to some people who were raised Catholic or whatever and said they just did it because they had to, and it made their parents happy or whatever, and they didn't really like it..

And one guy I knew went through it because his girlfriend was Catholic, but he said it was good and is continuing his faith (as far as I know).

What goes on during confirmation is exactly what went on on Penticost. The Apostles recieved the fullness of the Spirit, to do as Christ commanded, "as the Father has sent me, so I send you".

It is slightly different than HOW the Apostles recived it. When we are confirmed the Spirit doesn't descend on us as of tongues of fire. The Apostles were unique in this respect because there was no one above them but God. We see in Scripture that Confirmation for the early converts is administired through the "laying of hands" by the Apostels. I don't have a fast computer to go to the Catechism or the Bible (I'm at my mom's house - not work), but remember when Peter and John (I think) were sent to "lay hands", because the People had been Baptised but they had not yet recieved the fullness of the Spirit?

Baptism can be administed by anyone (but a Priest is recommended). And in Baptism we are recieved into the family of God (Father Son and Spirit). It is only after baptism that we can truly say, I am a Child of God! However, even after the Apostles were Baptised, they did not have the courage to go out and fulfill Christs wish. They waited for the "coming of the Spirit", that is, the fullness of the Spirit. Only when they were Confirmed (on Penticost) did they have this courage! They also had recieved what Charismatics will call the "Baptism in the Spirit", which is the OUTPOURING of the gifts of the Spirit. This is seperate from Confirmation. In confirmation we recieve the gifts and the Graces associated with them, but it is the OUTPOURING of these gifts which was what makes it manifest. The Apostles were blessed to have both the Confirmation and OUTPOURING happen at once. Though this is not always the case.

In any event, that is what Confirmation is. The Bishop, the Successors of the Apostles, lays his hands on us and by the Authority given to him by God, the Spirit, in His Fullness, is imparted to us. In the Opening of these gifts, now, (the OUT POURING), we then have the Courage and all the necessary tools to strengthen the CHurch.

Take for instance my sister. She has been Confirmed, but she remains in a quasi-lukewarm "CAtholic" state. When she finaly opens these gifts and is "Baptised in the Spirit", she then will begin to have the courage to LIVE her faith!

[Uncle Gus]

ok, then maybe it would help to explain what exactly goes on during confirmation.

I am part of a formation study group in my diocese, and the next topic we'll be covering is Confirmation. That'll be in two Thursday's time, so hang about and I'll let you know what I learn.

As for people being confirmed because "I had to," etc., that's a reflection on the sad state of Cetechesis in the Church. Nobody knows anything any more. I would say, sadly, that the majority of Catholics remain in the Church out of habit, or obligation to their parents. While it is good that they remain in the Church, their reasons can be improved. That's what this formation group I am a part of is trying to rectify.

(It's called "Sursum Corda," by the way, which means "lift up your hearts," taken from the Latin Rite of Mass.)

[Undercover]

As for people being confirmed because "I had to," etc., that's a reflection on the sad state of Cetechesis in the Church. Nobody knows anything any more. I would say, sadly, that the majority of Catholics remain in the Church out of habit, or obligation to their parents. While it is good that they remain in the Church, their reasons can be improved. That's what this formation group I am a part of is trying to rectify.

not to be too sarcastic or anything, but I thought you guys said that the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church and that it was infallible.. how then can there be so many problems like these?

[ICTHUS]

The Church is infallible.

The people within it aren't.

[ironmonk]

Here's a great article I found online years ago....

Confirmation in the Catholic Church and in the Bible

2 Cor 1:21-22 God is the one who firmly establishes (Vulgate, "confirmat",

confirms) us along with you in Christ; it is he who anointed us

and has sealed us, thereby depositing the first payment, the

Spirit, in our hearts. (NAB)

In these words, the great Fathers and Doctors of the Church and believers from Apostolic times have seen that sacrament so designated by which the Holy Spirit is conferred. From this scripture the sacrament was variously known as "confirmation," "signing," "anointing."

Acts 8:16-20 When the Apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted

the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. The two went

down to these people and prayed that they might receive the

Holy Spirit. It had not as yet come down upon any one of them

since they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord

Jesus. Simon observed that it was through the laying on of

hands that the apostles conferred the Spirit ... (NAB)

Acts 19:1-6 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior

of the country and came to Ephesus. There he found some

disciples to whom he put the question, "Did you receive the

Holy Spirit when you became believers?" They answered, "We have

not so much as heard that there is a Holy Spirit." "Well, how

were you baptized?" he persisted. They replied, "With the

baptism of John." Paul then explained, "John's baptism was a

baptism of repentance. He used to tell the people about the one

who would come after him in whom they were to believe--that is,

Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of

the Lord Jesus. As Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit

came down on them and they began to speak in tongues and to

utter prophecies. (NAB)

The constant faith of the Church attests to the existence and practice of the conferring the Holy Spirit to believers.

Pope Clement of Rome (92 - 101 AD) in his Letter to the Corinthians listed among the graces given to the people of Corinth "the fullness of the Holy Spirit."

The Apostolic Father of the Church, Hermas (Rome, 140?),in his writing, The Shepherd, also elaborated this.

Tertullian (Rome, 160 - 220) spoke of confirmation at least seven times and most often listed confirmation between baptism and the eucharist.

Cyprian (Carthage, 200 - 258) wrote of the necessity of the sacrament and distinguished it from baptism and spoke of it as a complement to baptism.

A local church Council (at Illiberitanum, 300) stated the rite of administration of confirmation. Pope Innocent I (401 - 417) taught the same rite of confirmation.

Jerome (Stridon, 345 - 419) asserted the custom of the Church that priests and deacons baptize; that bishops confer the Holy Spirit.

Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216) taught that through the imposi- tion of hands on the head of the person being confirmed the Holy Spirit is conferred in abundance and strength.

The Council of Lyons II (1274) defined the seven sacraments ... and confirmation which is conferred through the hands of the bishop ...

The Council of Trent (1545 - 1563) condemned the errors of the Reformers about this sacrament. The council fathers defined that confirmation is a true and proper sacrament of the Church.

It is often objected that with the sacrament of Baptism the Christian already has the Holy Spirit. The Christian certainly receives the Holy Spirit in Baptism. But that presence of the Spirit is not in that perfect state or total empowering which Christ promised. The very practice of Christ Himself distinguishes the degrees with which the Holy Spirit is conferred.

On the evening of Resurrection Sunday, Jesus conferred the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles

.

Jo 20:22 Then he breathed on them and said: "Receive the Holy Spirit ...

" (NAB)

Fifty days later, on the Jewish feast of Pentecost, the Apostles received the presence of the Holy Spirit and a greater empowering as promised by Christ (Jo 15:26 and 16:7).

Acts 2:4 All were filled with the Holy Spirit. (NAB)

Baptism and Confirmation and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Roman Catholic Christians look to the teaching authority of the Church as the sure guide to belief on matters of faith and morals. The latest teaching Council of the Church was Vatican Council II.

When the work which the Father had given the Son to do on earth was accomplished, the Holy Spirit was sent on the day of Pentecost in order that He might forever sanctify the Church. All believers have access to the Father through Christ in the one Spirit (Eph 2:18). He is the Spirit of life, a fountain of water springing up to life eternal (Jo 4:14; 7:38-39). Through him the Father gives life to men who are dead from sin, till at last he revives in Christ even their mortal bodies (Rom 8:10-11). The Spirit dwells in the Church and in the hearts of the faithful as in a temple (1 Cor 3:16; 6:19). In them he prays and bears witness to the fact that they are adopted sons (Gal 4:6; Rom 8:15-16, 26). The Spirit guides the Church into the fullness of truth (Jo 16:13) and gives her a unity of fellowship and service. He furnishes and directs her with various gifts, both hierarchical and charismatic, and adorns her with the fruits of his grace (Eph 4:11-12; 1 Cor 12:4; Gal 5:22). By the power of the gospel, he makes the Church grow, perpetually renews her, and leads her to perfect union with her Spouse. The Spirit and the Bride both say to the Lord Jesus, "Come!" (Rev 22:17). Thus the Church shines forth as "a people made one with the unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." (On the Church, 4)

The Church emphasizes that a person becomes a Christian and first receives the Holy Spirit through faith and Baptism.

Paul's teaching implies that the Holy Spirit is normally first given or conferred to individuals through belief and water baptism.

Eph 1:13 When you heard the good news of salvation, the word of truth,

and believed in it, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit who

has been promised. (NAB)

1 Cor 12:13 ... by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. (NAB)

Titus 3:6 He saved us through the baptism of new birth and renewal by

the Holy Spirit. (NAB)

Rom 8:9 If a man does not possess the Spirit of Christ, he does not

belong to him. (NAB)

The Apostles in the Acts of the Apostles appear to have understood the difference between the presence of the Holy Spirit in Baptism and in a later empowering. If a person were only baptized and did not receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit, the Apostles would pray and lay their hands on them, begging God to send his Holy Spirit in greater measure.

Acts 8:16-20 When the Apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted

the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. The two

went down to these people and prayed that they might receive

the Holy Spirit. It had not as yet come down upon any one of

them since they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord

Jesus. Simon observed that it was through the laying on of

hands that the apostles conferred the Spirit ... (NAB)

The Catholic Christian sacrament of Confirmation originates with this practice.

Water Baptism is not the only time or way that the Holy Spirit comes to live in a person, but the New Testament indicates the importance of being baptized into Christ and thus being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Rom 6:3 Are you not aware that we who are baptized into Christ Jesus

were baptized into his death? (NAB)

Eph 1:13 In him you too were chosen; when you heard the glad tidings of

salvation, the word of truth, and believed it, you were sealed

with the Holy Spirit who had been promised. (NAB)

Jo 3:5 Jesus replied (to Nicodemus); "I solemnly assure you, no one

can enter into God's kingdom without being begotten of water

and the Spirit." (NAB)

Roman Catholic Christians believe that they are first born again of water and the Holy Spirit when they receive the sacrament of Baptism.

Catholic Christians also believe that Baptism only begins the work of mission of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.

The person who is truly "born again" and "Spirit-filled" is not necessarily the one who has had an extraordinary experience of the Holy Spirit at some point (though this is a blessing), but the person who lives and "walks" with the Holy Spirit; who has put to death the "works of the flesh" and manifests the "fruits of the Spirit." This is what it means to be a "new creation" in Christ Jesus - "the old has passed away - behold, the new has come!" (2 Cor 5:7)

Much today is heard of being "baptized in the Spirit." The expression comes from Sacred Scripture.

Mt 3:11 He (Jesus) it is who will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and

fire. (NAB)

Mk 1:8 I (John) have baptized you in water; he (Jesus) will baptize

you in the Holy Spirit. (NAB)

Lk 3:16 He (Jesus) will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire.

(NAB)

Jo 1:33 When you see the Spirit descend and rest on someone, it is he

who is to baptize with the Holy Spirit. (NAB)

The Roman Catholic Church has never claimed that the work of the Holy Spirit is limited exclusively to Baptism.

Confirmation is the Catholic Church's official prayer for the Holy Spirit to empower a person to spread the gospel, to live a fervent Christian life, and share more fully in the mission and ministry of the Church.

Receiving the Holy Spirit in a new way, usually as the result of earnest, expectant prayer, is what many Christians today call being "baptized in the Holy Spirit."

Being "baptized in the Holy Spirit" is actually a "release" or a "coming to consciousness" of the power of the Holy Spirit who already has been given to the believer through the sacraments of the Church.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Paladin D]

The Church is infallible.

The people within it aren't.

Exactly.

Besides, over 50% of American Protestants (according to Josh McDowell, a Protestant himself), who claim to be Christian... have not recieved Christ as their Savior.

Hasn't the Catholic Church gone through problems like these before, on and off during the centuries?

Edited November 8, 2003 by Paladin D

[mark4IHM]

Regarding whether or not Our Lady died prior to being assumed into heaven, Pius XII, in defining as dogma her Assumption, simply said that "at the end of her earthly life" Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. So like Friday said (if I remember right), it is not clear whether she died or simply was in a state of "dormition," as a certain tradition has it. If she gained heaven without dying, she was not the first to do so, as I believe Elijah went to heaven without dying.

The Church is infallible in her teaching in so far as that teaching conforms to Sacred Tradition handed by Our Lord to the apostles, and to subsequent generations. She is not infallible in her members, and it would be absurd to claim so. For example, it is an infallible dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church, but this does not mean that all Catholics go to heaven.