Gay Catholics

[track2004]

Just as a reply to the animation thingy...

OK so we'll basically agree that no one or not many people just up and choose to be gay.
So there has to be some reason for it.
No one has really found a 'gay gene' nor can anyone really fathom how that would effectively be passed down to generations. There are a few things that may suggest that maybe it's a thing with hormones during pregnancy but it's just a guess.
So just by process of elimination it would lie somewhere in the environment. And basically psychologists now-a-days think everything really is. But it's not like we can feasibly control that any more than we can control genetics.

In other words... We'll never really pin point one thing that makes people gay, and if we could... well, would it be a good thing or would it be dangerous?

[Aloysius]

Dr. Robert Spitzer seems to think it's a good thing to work on reparative therapy. Because it IS a harmful thing for the person, though they can appear to lead normal lives there are problems assosiated with it and Dr. Spitzer's study confirms that it can be treated and changed through good scientific reparative therapy, though obviously not by throwing a Bible at them.

if you are naive enough to believe the idea that homosexual anger problems, resentment issues, and suicide rates are the result of an unaccepting society, you are mistaken. people with SSAD tend to have issues with their father, with masculine friendships from an early age, and many other issues that are tied in to their homosexual tendencies. I have met psychologists who work more on solving the anger and resentment problems from the start, rather than focusing so much on this orientation idea. THAT tends to be most helpful in reparative therapy, helping them deal with issues of the past if they have either not had a good relationship with their father, or they've been sexually abused, or they never had any close male friends, or whatever the case may be. Those issues are often at the core of this orientation.


okay, this time i'm really leaving... errr.. who am I kidding if someone says something I'll probably want to respond so never mind, i'll be here.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='jezic' date='Apr 23 2005, 02:37 PM']
2357 ~ Tradition has always declared that homosexual [b]acts[/b] are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law and close the sexual act to the gift of life.

2358 ~ The number of men and women who have deep seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with compassion, respect, and sensitivity. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition

2359 ~ Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that theach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

[/quote]
I couldn't have worded it better myself.

Perfect.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Apr 23 2005, 11:23 PM'] so anyway then, how come no one posted the link of the anti-thesis"dignity" (their definition of dignity is actually the deadly sin of pride) : COURAGE

[url="http://www.couragerc.net"]http://www.couragerc.net[/url]
[/quote]
I didn't know it existed!! That's great to see.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Apr 23 2005, 11:12 PM']you have Diabetes disorder, I have same sex attraction disorder.  we'll make a deal, I won't call you a diabetian if you don't call me a homosexual

anyway, that's why I don't like talking about it.  too much of a personal struggle.  publicizing it only gives it a more forceful control over my identity and image.[/quote]
Aloysius,

I admire your spirit, courage and honesty.

Thanks for the info too.

The homosexual community in North America has been following agendas for decades. Through persistent lies, fallacies and propaganda they have succeeded in gaining the support of a great deal of people, maybe a majority in North America? I do not think that the supporters of homosexuality have such a majority - yet. They appear at times to have it because those who oppose it do so quietly and respectfully.

Regardless of their agendas and 'success' in promoting them, I am not very worried. In time, the truth will prevail simply because ANYTHING that is built on so many lies cannot stand indefinately.

The battle belongs to the lord.

[PennyLane]

This has already been said but I thought I would remind everyone.

CCC 2358
" Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are caled to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

Thanks.

God bless.

[Socrates]

[quote name='PennyLane' date='May 11 2005, 01:22 PM'] This has already been said but I thought I would remind everyone.

CCC 2358
" Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are caled to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

Thanks.

God bless. [/quote]
And we are also commanded to "Admonish the Sinner."

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Socrates' date='May 11 2005, 02:25 PM'] And we are also commanded to "Admonish the Sinner." [/quote]
The thing is no one on this thread (that I've noticed) has defended homosexual acts so I don't think there's any need to admonish anyone. Everyone has made it perfectly clear that acting on SSA tendancies is sinful.

[Ellenita]

[quote]OK so we'll basically agree that no one or not many people just up and choose to be gay. [/quote]

Presumably this thread is just about gay men because there is evidence that quite a number of women involved in the feminist movement did 'just up and choose to be gay'. Whether choosing that life style became a life term committment for the majority of those women is not so clear......

[KizlarAgha]

The most interesting evidence I've seen just came out of Sweden this week. Apparently gay men respond to the smell of testosterone "pheremones" in the same way as women. The studied showed that gay men and women's brains responded in the same way when they smelled the male testosterone concoction, but differently from the brains of straight men - indicating a biological difference

Also interesting, was that gay men's brains were slightly sexually activated by the smell of female pheremones - something not true of heterosexual women, but true of heterosexual men. I think this adds credence to my theory that gay men are more likely to exhibit bisexual tendencies than straight men.

[Guest chi rho]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 22 2005, 05:09 PM'] I was stunned a few days ago to learn that the Gay movement is infiltrating nearly every religious denomination including Catholics:

[url="http://www.dignityusa.org/"]http://www.dignityusa.org/[/url]

I am all for showing mercy to Gays who want to repent and lead celibate lives, but does the Catholic Church generally condemn practicing gay lifestyles? [/quote]
ok my opinion about homosexuality is that the way u dress, talk, or act does not make u a homosexual. its on;y when u apply any physical or mental affect to the same gender as urself. if i were to be gay. iam not gay when i got to skool, iam a student. when i got to work iam not gay iam a worker. iam only gay when i apply it to my life. not by the way i dress or talk or act girly. gay ppol have the same stuggles as straight ppol are called to do. they still too must have no sexual relationship outside of marriage including oral sex. and yes i do beileve that homosexuality is a mental disorder. as catholics are we can do is to pray for them.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='track2004' date='Apr 23 2005, 07:39 PM'] Just $.02 and my psych student clarification.

When the DSM was under going large scale revisions in the 1970s SSAD was one of the many things they (the APA) changed.  The group got together and decided that people with this 'disorder' were actually leading healthy productive lives and, besides living in a society that disapproves, actually were happy.  The APA realized that being gay wasn't the same as being bipolar or paraniod.  They also realized that being homosexual, even actively, does not contribute to the mental health of a person; in other words, statistically they couldn't tell the difference between heterosexual and homosexual people in terms of overall mental health.  They took Homosexuality out of the DSM.  They did however leave in a blanket, sexual identity category so anyone who was homosexual or transgender (which is still in the DSM as I recall) or just confused about it could get his or her insurance to cover the bills. [/quote]
There is no such thing as [i][b]being[/b][/i] "gay," and so a man must never be reduced in his subsistent reality to the disordered inclinations that afflict his mind ([i]nous[/i]) and will (i.e., the gnomic will, and not the natural will which remains unaffected by the ancestral sin). The homosexual inclination, like other disordered inclinations (e.g., pedophilia and ephebophilia, or kleptomania and other compulsive disorders), does not exist ontologically; instead, it is a "pathological constitution" [1] of the mind ([i]nous[/i]) and gnomic will, caused by the fall of man from grace. Moreover, the Church teaches that the homosexual inclination is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil, and so although the condition is not in itself a sin, it is not to be thought of as benign, morally neutral, or worse, as a "good." Instead, the homosexual condition must be seen for what it is, i.e., a relative absence of the good in the gnomic will of the creature, and so no one [i][b]is[/b][/i] "gay." [2] That being said, the Magisterium holds that some human beings are afflicted with homosexual tendencies, and those who experience these disordered desires are to strive to overcome them by the power of God's grace. As a consequence, no one must ever identify himself with a moral privation (i.e., an objective disorder of the mind and gnomic will), and when discussing this issue it is vital that a Catholic avoid the politically correct terminology of modern secular culture. Sadly the APA, under pressure from homosexual activists, removed this objective disorder from its category of mental illnesses afflicting man; but regardless, the Church continues to teach that the homosexual inclination, like any other disordered inclination, is a disorder of the mind ([i]nous[/i]) and gnomic will caused by the fall. Therefore, a Catholic must be resolute in teaching the truth about man as it has been revealed in Christ Jesus, and must not fall into the error of describing this pathological disorder with the politically correct terminology of modern secular humanism.

NOTES:

[1] See the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's instruction, [u]Persona Humana[/u], no. 8; as the CDF instruction explains, "A distinction is drawn, and it seems with some reason, between homosexuals whose tendency comes from a false education, from a lack of normal sexual development, from habit, from bad example, or from other similar causes, and is transitory or at least not incurable; and homosexuals who are definitively such because of some kind of innate instinct or a pathological constitution judged to be incurable." In some individuals this disordered inclination, which is a mental ([i]psychological[/i]) disorder related to the fall, may take on characteristics that cause it to perdure over time, but it remains a disorder nonetheless and must not be thought of as an essential component of a man's nature.

[2] See the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's instruction, [u]Homosexualitatis Problema[/u], no. 3; I note with sadness that after the publication of the instruction [u]Persona Humana[/u] some people began to teach that the homosexual inclination itself was not objectively disordered, but that only homosexual activity was to be described as disordered. Now in order to clarify this mistake the CDF stated the following: "Explicit treatment of the problem was given in this Congregation's [u]Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics[/u] [[i]Persona Humana[/i]] of December 29, 1975. That document stressed the duty of trying to understand the homosexual condition and noted that culpability for homosexual acts should only be judged with prudence. At the same time the Congregation took note of the distinction commonly drawn between the homosexual condition or tendency and individual homosexual actions. These were described as deprived of their essential and indispensable finality, as being [i]intrinsically disordered[/i], and able in no case to be approved of (cf. n. 8, 4). In the discussion which followed the publication of the Declaration, however, an overly benign interpretation was given to the homosexual condition itself, some going so far as to call it neutral, or even good. Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder. Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not."

Edited May 12, 2005 by Apotheoun

[Cam42]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 12 2005, 07:12 AM'] There is no such thing as [i][b]being[/b][/i] "gay," and so a man must never be reduced in his subsistent reality to the disordered inclinations that afflict his mind ([i]nous[/i]) and will (the gnomic will, and not the natural will). The homosexual inclination, like other disordered inclinations (e.g., pedophilia and ephebophilia, or kleptomania and other compulsive disorders), does not exist ontologically; instead, it is a "pathological constitution" [1] of the mind ([i]nous[/i]) and gnomic will, caused by the fall of man from grace. Moreover, the Church teaches that the homosexual inclination is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil, and so although the condition is not in itself a sin, it is not to be thought of as benign, morally neutral, or worse, as a "good." Instead, the homosexual condition must be seen for what it is, i.e., a relative absence of the good in the gnomic will of the creature, and so no one [i][b]is[/b][/i] "gay." [2] The Magisterium holds that some human beings are afflicted with homosexual tendencies, and those who experience these disordered desires are to strive to overcome them by the power of God's grace. As a consequence, no one must ever identify himself with a moral privation (i.e., an objective disorder of the mind and gnomic will), and Catholics must avoid the politically correct terminology of modern culture when discussing this issue. Sadly the APA, under pressure from homosexual activists, removed this objective disorder from its category of mental illnesses afflicting man, but regardless, the Church continues to teach that the homosexual inclination, like any other disordered inclination, is a disorder of the mind (nous) and gnomic will caused by the fall. Therefore, a Catholic must be resolute in teaching the truth about man as it has been revealed in Christ Jesus, and must not fall into the error of describing this pathological disordered with the politically correct terminology of modern secular humanists.

NOTES:

[1] See the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's, Instruction [u]Persona Humana[/u], no. 8; as the CDF instruction explains, "A distinction is drawn, and it seems with some reason, between homosexuals whose tendency comes from a false education, from a lack of normal sexual development, from habit, from bad example, or from other similar causes, and is transitory or at least not incurable; and homosexuals who are definitively such because of some kind of innate instinct or a pathological constitution judged to be incurable." In some individuals this disordered inclination, which is a mental ([i]psychological[/i]) disorder related to the fall, may take on characteristics that cause it to perdure over time, but it remains a disorder nonetheless and must not be thought of as an essential component of a man's nature.

[2] See the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's, Instruction [u]Homosexualitatis Problema[/u], no. 3; I note with sadness that after the issuance of the instruction [u]Persona Humana[/u] some people began to teach that the homosexual inclination itself was not objectively disordered, but that only homosexual activity was to be described as disordered. Now in order to clarify this mistake the CDF stated the following: "Explicit treatment of the problem was given in this Congregation's [u]Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics[/u] [[i]Persona Humana[/i]] of December 29, 1975. That document stressed the duty of trying to understand the homosexual condition and noted that culpability for homosexual acts should only be judged with prudence. At the same time the Congregation took note of the distinction commonly drawn between the homosexual condition or tendency and individual homosexual actions. These were described as deprived of their essential and indispensable finality, as being [i]intrinsically disordered[/i], and able in no case to be approved of (cf. n. 8, 4). In the discussion which followed the publication of the Declaration, however, an overly benign interpretation was given to the homosexual condition itself, some going so far as to call it neutral, or even good. Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder. Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not." [/quote]
What he said....

[cmotherofpirl]

Can you copy this to the apologetic section?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 12 2005, 06:08 AM'] Can you copy this to the apologetic section? [/quote]
I think Phatcatholic has to do that.