Execute Them!

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Evangelium Vitae']In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: "If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person".48[/quote]

Well, bloodless means are most certainly available for pedophiles...

[MichaelFilo]

Note : You state opinion, they post unending and everlasting Truth.

There is a proper punishment for an action. Mercy would be Justice. The two do NOT contradict. God is willing to give everyone a second chance, they only need to confess and beg for His Divine Mercy. However, you fail to understand, the death penalty does not remove that chance to repent. Capital punishment isn't meant to be incentive to confession, it is the fair punishment for murder. However, it also works to be a great incentive. Same with sex, it is not about pleasure, but that is an added bonus.

We can all agree God works without the need for life to be taken. However, justice has to be justified. If you argue that the Church isn't in support of the death penalty, that is one thing, but to argue against the death penalty when the Church is clearly in favor of it is to lean on heresy. That is like arguing that the Eucharist isn't actually Jesus's Body, even if the Church teaches it. That is plain wrong. However, to argue that the Church doesn't teach it is a different matter, even if you are still completely wrong. All Justice comes forth from the Most Just. If He says it is fair, then it is. Let there be no question.

God bless,
Mikey

[Q the Ninja]

If they state Truth, then the Holy Father was wrong...

(forgot a capital letter).

Edited May 5, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[MichaelFilo]

The Truth is thus, that capital punishment is Just in response to a crime where life was taken.

The Holy Father was not totally in line with this. The Holy Father can speak error if he speaks alone and not with the intention to make the comment ex cathedra.

God bless,
Mikey

[Carnanc]

correct. I know that the death penalty is a fine option in many cases and satisfies justice, as the Church teaches. So in many societies I suppose the death penalty is very good thing. I just don't think that it is prudent to rely on the death penalty in the United States to be used properly, especially when it is not neccessary because we have the cabability of keeping people who may be dangerous in prison. In other places where this is not so, the death penalty is just fine because than it directly serves the common good of society by keeping it safe.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 5 2005, 02:39 PM'] The Truth is thus, that capital punishment is Just in response to a crime where life was taken.

The Holy Father was not totally in line with this. The Holy Father can speak error if he speaks alone and not with the intention to make the comment ex cathedra.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
And while he errs, we give a religious submission of MIND and will. Doesn't matter if he errs, we cannot morally say so.

[MichaelFilo]

Name the benefits of lifetime prison versus execution?

God bless,
Mikey

[Q the Ninja]

Obedience to the Holy Father.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 5 2005, 04:41 PM'] And while he errs, we give a religious submission of MIND and will. Doesn't matter if he errs, we cannot morally say so. [/quote]
According to....? It has been neccessary in the past for the lower clergy and even the laity to correct the Pope...

God bless,
Mikey

[Q the Ninja]

According to the authority of the Second Vatican Council.

While he excercises the teaching office of Pope we must give a religious submission of mind and will. I posted this above.

This even includes NON-Ex Cathedra statements.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Lumen Gentium']In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.[/quote]

[Colleen]

This is what the encyclical [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html"]Evangelium Vitae[/url] has to say about the death penalty:

[quote]56. This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely. The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity and thus, in the end, with God's plan for man and society. [i]The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is "to redress the disorder caused by the offence".46 Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfils the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people's safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behaviour and be rehabilitated.[/i] 47

It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: "If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person".48[/quote]

This is not talking about justice being done to the person who committed a crime, but rather about the well-being of the society. According to Evangelium Vitae, when making use of the death penalty, the focus should be on protecting order and keeping people safe.

[Carnanc]

[url="http://www.usccb.org/prolife/issues/cappunish/index.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/prolife/issues/cappunish/index.htm[/url]

here are some sources on this.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 5 2005, 03:48 PM'] According to the authority of the Second Vatican Council.

While he excercises the teaching office of Pope we must give a religious submission of mind and will. I posted this above.

This even includes NON-Ex Cathedra statements. [/quote]
And as I stated above Lumen gentium is a pastorial document and neither infallable nor even authoritative in the manner in which you speak, further as I said we are required by it to submit mind and will to all writings of the Roman Pontiff, So what about previous popes who disagree with the JPII or more than that, it is obvious that Ratzingers writings disagree with JPII on certian matters particularly on the matter of dissent on Capital Punishment and War. He is now Pope so either ALL Popes opinions are equally valid or JPII don't count anymore anyway, so which is it?

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 5 2005, 03:06 PM'] And as I stated above Lumen gentium is a pastorial document and neither infallable nor even authoritative in the manner in which you speak, further as I said we are required by it to submit mind and will to all writings of the Roman Pontiff, So what about previous popes who disagree with the JPII or more than that, it is obvious that Ratzingers writings disagree with JPII on certian matters particularly on the matter of dissent on Capital Punishment and War. He is now Pope so either ALL Popes opinions are equally valid or JPII don't count anymore anyway, so which is it? [/quote]
Hmm...I'm not going to respond.

I'll let the First Vatican Council have a word though:
[quote]Chapter 3. On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman pontiff
1. And so,
o supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and
o adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors
§ the Roman pontiffs and of
§ general councils,
o we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical council of Florence [49] ,
o which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that
§ the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that
§ the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter,
§ the prince of the apostles,
§ true vicar of Christ,
§ head of the whole church and
§ father and teacher of all christian people.
§ To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to
§ tend,
§ rule and govern
§ the universal church.
All this is to be found in the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons.
2. Wherefore we teach and declare that,
o by divine ordinance,
o the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that
o this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both
§ episcopal and
§ immediate.
o Both clergy and faithful,
§ of whatever rite and dignity,
§ both singly and collectively,
o are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this
§ not only in matters concerning faith and morals,
§ but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.
3. In this way, by unity with the Roman pontiff in communion and in profession of the same faith , the church of Christ becomes one flock under one supreme shepherd [50] .
4. This is the teaching of the catholic truth, and no one can depart from it without endangering his faith and salvation.
5. This power of the supreme pontiff by no means detracts from that ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction, by which bishops, who have succeeded to the place of the apostles by appointment of the holy Spirit, tend and govern individually the particular flocks which have been assigned to them. On the contrary, this power of theirs is asserted, supported and defended by the supreme and universal pastor; for St Gregory the Great says: "My honour is the honour of the whole church. My honour is the steadfast strength of my brethren. Then do I receive true honour, when it is denied to none of those to whom honour is due." [51]
6. Furthermore, it follows from that supreme power which the Roman pontiff has in governing the whole church, that he has the right, in the performance of this office of his, to communicate freely with the pastors and flocks of the entire church, so that they may be taught and guided by him in the way of salvation.
7. And therefore we condemn and reject the opinions of those who hold that
o this communication of the supreme head with pastors and flocks may be lawfully obstructed; or that
o it should be dependent on the civil power, which leads them to maintain that what is determined by the apostolic see or by its authority concerning the government of the church, has no force or effect unless it is confirmed by the agreement of the civil authority.
8. Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise teach and declare that
o he is the supreme judge of the faithful [52] , and that
o in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment [53] .
o The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone,
o nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon [54] . And so
o they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontiff.
9. So, then,
o if anyone says that
§ the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and
§ not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this
§ not only in matters of
§ faith and morals, but also in those which concern the
§ discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that
§ he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that
§ this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:
let him be anathema.
[/quote]