Execute Them!

[popestpiusx]

Off with their heads!

[Q the Ninja]

I have yet to see a reasonable and logical argument for the death penalty in this case.

Edited May 5, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[Q the Ninja]

Also, don't we owe an ascent of mind and will (as the Second Vatican Council put it) to the teaching that it shouldn't be used very often, and especially not if the person can be contained?

I think pedophiles can be reasonably contained, whether we like the idea or not.

Edited May 5, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[Winchester]

One needn't know culpability to judge the degree of offence. Not one person. Not ONE, has mentioned eternal punishment being meted out. We are discussing temporal punishment alone. Are the crimes of a pedophile of lesser degree than that of a serial killer, such that a serial killer may warrant death when a pedophile may not.

As for containment, most criminals can be contained in a supermax, but such facilities are incredibly expensive, sometimes dangerous to the workers. The expense of surely containing a criminal must come into play, since draining the resources of a country has a negative effect on its citizens. If some vital government program must be cut, or already onerous taxes must be raised, then in the interest of protecting citizens, execution may well be neccessary. Don't tell me execution is more expensive than imprisonment; I know in most cases it is. We are assuming a modicum of sanity.

[Winchester]

I must add: The death penalty should have not a whit to do with culpability. It has to do with threat level and the severity of the crime. Thus, the execution of the mentally deficient or of "minors" (our concept being, in my mind, dreadfully skewed) is a moot point to me. No one is less dead because his killer could not spell his own name or was too young to buy beer.

[Q the Ninja]

Winchester, since I made the only two references to culpability in the entire thread, I think I should be the one to respond, because I think you misunderstood both.

[quote] You really cannot, but the people who push such cases (for wrong reasons) are very culpable for a great malum.[/quote]

This is just talking about those who punish for the wrong reasons, who will be culpable. It really has nothing to do with the person punished, but everything to do with the punisher. If someone kills a family member of mine and I want them dead out of revenge (or "justice") you better believe that I will have a lot to answer for. Catholic Moral Theology, as I think you know, says that we can never directly (I don't think indirectly is allowed either) will the death of a person. Please, take this last statement of mine in context, because if you are wanting the health of society, you aren't really willing the death of the person.

[quote]We can't say...no way to tell their culpability.[/quote]

This has nothing to do with the death penalty, just a response to, "And serial killers are worse than pedophiles in what way?" which I took as referring to the person being worse, and not the action. I thought, but I probably misunderstood, that you were saying that because he's a pedophile he's worse than she, who is a serial killer, no matter what.

Anyways, the culpability of the death penalty never comes into play, unless it's the culpability of person or people responsiblity for enacting that penalty. Just as a person in war who shoots someone else for the wrong reason, capital punishment can be used wrongly and unjustly.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 5 2005, 08:25 AM']



This is just talking about those who punish for the wrong reasons, who will be culpable. It really has nothing to do with the person punished, but everything to do with the punisher. If someone kills a family member of mine and I want them dead out of revenge (or "justice") you better believe that I will have a lot to answer for. Catholic Moral Theology, as I think you know, says that we can never directly (I don't think indirectly is allowed either) will the death of a person.



[/quote]
One does not commit a sin by wanting the death penalty for a convicted murderer. Its called justice. They have deliberately taken the life of an innocent person, and have forfeited there own.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 5 2005, 09:27 AM'] One does not commit a sin by wanting the death penalty for a convicted murderer. Its called justice. They have deliberately taken the life of an innocent person, and have forfeited there own. [/quote]
It is an important distinction, one can desire justice for the man who has forfieted his own right to life, one candesire that justice be metted out swiftly, but one cannot activly desire that the other person be killed, only that he recieve just punishment, which may or may not be death. It is a fine distinction but an important one.

[popestpiusx]

Off with their heads!!

[Timothy]

WHOOPS wrong thread

Edited May 5, 2005 by Timothy

[Angel]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 3 2005, 08:55 PM']I don't believe people have the rightto play God either, but I don't see whatthat has to do with capital punishment, someone who desides for themselves what is right or wrong instead of listening to Gods law is playing God. Capital pusishment is nothing of the kind, it is simply the State defending it's own.[/quote]
I agree with that, anyone who goes against Gods laws should be punished. However, Justice being done does not mean death. I dont think 2 wrongs make a right. Sure people shouldnt kill other people or rapists shouldnt rape, but is it even more right to kill them? I think Justice can still be done by putting them behind bars and out of society. I think that is punishment enough spending the rest of their life there in prison. Rape is a terrible crime and they should go to jail for a long time but i dont think its right to kill anyone. And there are always people who are wrongly accused and end up dying for nothing done wrong. I just dont think God himself would agree with death, period. That is why there are jails to put the criminals there for as long need be. Just my opinion

[Aloysius]

this is not two wrongs making a right. it is right to execute them.

non est enim potestas nisi a Deo; there is no authority except from God. and thus the state's authority is derived from God and it has the authority and sometimes the responsibility to administer justice.

Catholic teaching clearly shows that Justice demands the end of a life which causes death... i.e. a murderer does not have the right to live because he gave it up. he already committed suicide through his homicide according to Catholic Teaching, and it is the power of the state to make sure that shows through his physical death.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Angel' date='May 5 2005, 03:29 PM'] I agree with that, anyone who goes against Gods laws should be punished. However, Justice being done does not mean death. I dont think 2 wrongs make a right. Sure people shouldnt kill other people or rapists shouldnt rape, but is it even more right to kill them? I think Justice can still be done by putting them behind bars and out of society. I think that is punishment enough spending the rest of their life there in prison. Rape is a terrible crime and they should go to jail for a long time but i dont think its right to kill anyone. And there are always people who are wrongly accused and end up dying for nothing done wrong. I just dont think God himself would agree with death, period. That is why there are jails to put the criminals there for as long need be. Just my opinion [/quote]
Where does it say that justice does NOT include death as a punishment?

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 5 2005, 01:18 PM'] this is not two wrongs making a right. it is right to execute them.

non est enim potestas nisi a Deo; there is no authority except from God. and thus the state's authority is derived from God and it has the authority and sometimes the responsibility to administer justice.

Catholic teaching clearly shows that Justice demands the end of a life which causes death... i.e. a murderer does not have the right to live because he gave it up. he already committed suicide through his homicide according to Catholic Teaching, and it is the power of the state to make sure that shows through his physical death. [/quote]
And how do you balance this with the teachings of Pope John Paul II?

I think they contradict.

[Carnanc]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 5 2005, 02:18 PM'] Catholic teaching clearly shows that Justice demands the end of a life which causes death... i.e. a murderer does not have the right to live because he gave it up. he already committed suicide through his homicide according to Catholic Teaching, and it is the power of the state to make sure that shows through his physical death. [/quote]
what about showing Mercy though. Justice may say that a person who takes anothers life has taken their own, but I think that in many cases God is willing to give that person another chance to repent, and Capital Punishment should not be the incentive to that repentence, God works in many ways that do not involve taking life.