Baptism In The Spirit...

[Jake Huether]

Jake,

It is important to note, that in Acts 8:16-20 it is referring to people who had been baptized "in the name of Jesus only" this by itself is not a full baptism (since you must be baptized in the full Trinity) and may be the reason they had not recieved the Holy Spirit.  Perhaps Theologian in Training, or others could shed some more light on this.

peace...

Pedro,

When they say that they were Baptised in the name of Jesus, they are refering to the same Baptism you and I recieve.

You and I were Baptised in the name of Jesus.

Acts 2:38

Peter replied, Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

10:48

So he ordered that they be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.

It is called, "Baptism", and it is done in the name of Jesus (that is, since Jesus was the one who commanded it). Though the formula is "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." When Jesus commanded them to do something, the Apostles would convey that by saying, "do such and such...In the name of Jesus".

When Scripture says they were ONLY Baptised in the name of Jesus, therefore, they are NOT saying that they Apostles who Baptised them forgot to say, "In the name of the Father, and of the Holy Spirit". It means to say that they hadn't yet been Confirmed. In other words, they had not yet recieved the Spirit in His fullness.

[Jake Huether]

Acts 19

4 Paul said, John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.

5 On hearing this, they were baptised into the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

A classic example of ALL three (Baptism, Confirmation, and the outpouring of the gifts of the Spirit - aka Baptism in the Spirit).

They are Baptised into the name of the Lord Jesus (i.e. I Baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. - as Jesus had commanded).

Then Paul, an Apostle, "placed his hands on them" and they were confirmed.

They then spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Edit to clarify the Churches position: Baptism and Confirmation are Sacraments. Baptism is necessary for salvation. "Baptism in the Spirit" is the Outpouring of the gifts of the Spirit. It is not a sacrament, and it is not necessarily associated with the two Sacraments formerly listed.

[Undercover]

Edit to clarify the Churches position:  Baptism and Confirmation are Sacraments.  Baptism is necessary for salvation.  "Baptism in the Spirit" is the Outpouring of the gifts of the Spirit.  It is not a sacrament, and it is not necessarily associated with the two Sacraments formerly listed.

Baptism is necessary for salvation? What then about the man on the cross next to Jesus?

[Paladin D]

Baptism is necessary for salvation?  What then about the man on the cross next to Jesus?

We (not necessarily me, but others) have told you, there are three different types of baptisms.

There is...

- Water baptism

- Baptism of desire

- Baptism of blood

...for some odd reason, I can't describe accurately what "Baptism of desire" is at the moment. But "Baptism of Blood" is those who have died for Christ, who have not been baptised in water.

Edited November 11, 2003 by Paladin D

[Anna]

try not getting so upset just by seeing the word "Baptism" but looking at what it means.

Who's upset?

I am well aware of its meaning.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited November 11, 2003 by Anna

[Anna]

QUOTE (Paladin)

Those who are baptised in water, are also baptised in the Holy Spirit.

(Jake)

As the quotes that I posted would indicate, this is not true.

Say what??????!!!!!!!

When we are baptized with water, Jake, we are also baptised in the Holy Spirit. It is One Baptism! This is the Catholic Church's teaching.

I've heard your explanations all before...(water refers to physical birth, Baptism of the Holy Spirit refers to an outpouring of another kind, manifested by visible extraordinary gifts...)

I get this all the time from my aunt who left the Catholic Church after getting heavily involved in charismania...(and I'm not saying Catholic Charismatic Renewal, which may well be an authentic Catholic practice---I'm saying charismania---an obsession with the charisms of the Holy Spirit, while rejecting the Sacraments instituted by Christ.)

I don't mean here to show any disrespect toward the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. I've just heard these arguments before, where good, practicing Catholics begin reasoning things out for themselves, without consulting authentic Church teaching on the subject.

The Church's official teaching is that when we are sacramentally baptized, we are baptized in water AND the Holy Spirit.

There is NO other baptism!!!

The term Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as used by charismatics, seems to be an oddity, a misnomer, and a dangerously confusing term.

The Church does not now, nor has it ever, held that the baptism of water and baptism of the Holy Spirit are separable or divisible. Our bodies become temples of the Holy Spirit from the moment the priest pours the water over our heads.

Charisms may manifest themselves any time before or after baptism or confirmation; the Spirit blows where He wills. Doubtful that Saint Elizabeth, while pregnant for St. John the Baptist, had been baptized when she was filled with the Holy Spirit, greeting the Virgin Mary!

I really hope I don't sound like I'm arguing with you, cuz I don't wanna sound like that. Hopefully, I am reasoning with you, and clarifying Church teaching...in my poor manner...

Pax Christi. <><

Edited November 11, 2003 by Anna

[BLAZEr]

I'm sure someone has done this already, but it seems it has not gotten through:

CATECHISM:

1213: Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water and in the word." 1214: This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to "plunge" or "immerse"; the "plunge" into the water symbolizes the catechumen's burial into Christ's death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature." 1215: This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God." 1226: From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. inDouche St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans. Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household," St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer "was baptized at once, with all his family." 1227: According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ's death, is buried with him, and rises with him: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. The baptized have "put on Christ." Through the Holy Spirit, Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies.

And

CATECHISM:

1241: The anointing with sacred chrism, perfumed oil consecrated by the bishop, signifies the gift of the Holy Spirit to the newly baptized, who has become a Christian, that is, one "anointed" by the Holy Spirit, incorporated into Christ who is anointed priest, prophet, and king. 1242: In the liturgy of the Eastern Churches, the post-baptismal anointing is the sacrament of Chrismation (Confirmation). In the Roman liturgy the post-baptismal anointing announces a second anointing with sacred chrism to be conferred later by the bishop—Confirmation, which will as it were "confirm" and complete the baptismal anointing. 1266: The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification: enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues; giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit; allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues. Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism. 1274: The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption." "Baptism inDouche is the seal of eternal life." The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God—the consummation of faith—and in the hope of resurrection. 1279: The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ.

[Uncle Gus]

Baptism is necessary for salvation?  What then about the man on the cross next to Jesus?

I had already answered that question before, and now others have answered it again.

[Jake Huether]

When we are baptized with water, Jake, we are also baptised in the Holy Spirit.

Sorry Anna, there is no such teaching. As the Catechism states, we are Baptized with water and we RECIEVE the Holy Spirit (in part - in fullness in Confirmation).

We are not Baptised IN the Holy Spirit when we are Baptised IN water. If you can show me where it specifically says that when we are Baptised with water we are also Baptised IN the Holy Spirit, then I will give in. But this is just not accurate.

You might be confusing the teaching that we must be BORN of water and spirit. We are born of spirit in Baptism. (Catechism 1215) But we are not Baptised IN the Spirit (in His name, but not IN Him).

Yes, we are Baptised IN the NAME OF the Trinity. But being Baptised IN THE NAME OF does not mean IN! I don't see how one can equate IN THE NAME OF and IN.

When we are Baptised we recieve the Holy Spirit (and the Father and the Son). We are recieved into their Family (the Trinity). We are washed of our sins and become children of God.

When we are confirmed we recieve the Holy Spirit in His Fullness. Yet, we still are not Baptised IN Him. We were Baptised IN HIS NAME. We recieve His gifts at Confirmation.

When we open the gift that we recieved in Baptism and in Confirmation and these gifts are OUTPOURED through us, then we are Baptised (immersed) IN Him.

I realize that you are carefull about the Charismatic movement, due to the loss of friends to this "mania".

But you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You are trying to error on the safe side, but in reality you are putting up a road block to something that is good. God the Holy Spirit is good. His gifts are good. And the OPENING of them is good.

There are Catholics who have left the Church because they "find Jesus" elsewhere too! Does that mean we should "tone down" or reword our teachings on Christ!

I don't beleive that I've said anything agains the Church or her teachings. In fact, I've supported my ideas with Scripture and the Catechism. I'm not going to leave the Church. And by the things that I've said, I wouldn't expect anyone to leave either.

What I have said is that YES there are abuses. Even within the Catholic Charismatic renewal, much moreso (as one can imagine) outside the Church.

But the Charismatic renewal isn't NEW. It is a renewal. The Apostles were Charismatic. And St. Peter said the gift was for ALL. It is an attempt to reignite an understanding of the POTENTIAL within us all to OPEN the gifts that we recieve via the Holy Spirit.

Now, inDouche this is POWER. And those seeking power CAN and DO use this POWER (because it is a gift) for BAD things, which seaks to distroy the Church. But then, should this power be taken from all? Had Paul not had this Power, would he not have converted so many people! Would the Apostles have been able to step out of the upper room and preach to all nations. This Power is so good in the right hands.

The gates of hell will not prevail agains the Church. That is why the gift is left for ALL (those who might use it for good, and those who would use it wrongly).

Outside the Church this is a powder keg, becuase there is no guidance. Satan can easily fool someone into thinking that they've opend the gifts of the Spirit, when they really haven't. But inside the Church, if you know the Teachings, then you can open the gifts and the fruits of the gifts will edify the Church and build Her up and strengthen her.

Anna, if your friends left the Church, it wasn't BECAUSE of the Catholic Charismatic renewal. That might have been the agent. But if they left, then it is obvious that they didn't know what they had to begin with. Praying with the Saints is an agent that causes many to leave. Should we stop praying with the Saints.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong. But I have provided Scripture. There are Catechism quotes available. I don't believe there is anything I've said that is contrary to what our Church teaches.

[Jake Huether]

And just to make sure it is clear.

I'm not making this stuff up on my own. Though, in this dialogue I sure have strengthened my own understanding and belief. As I have said earlier. My family is envolved, and I have met and heard several talks on this subject by priests an lay persons who know much more than me (obviously).

Please, for your own edification, contact Fr. Hampsch, Fr. Faricy, Dominic Berardino, Babsie Bleasdellm. Ask them about "Baptism in the Spirit". It isn't a novalty. And it certainly isn't my own brainchild. I'm just conveying what I know.

http://claretiantapeministry.org/ (I found the webpage of Fr. Hampsch - If you want to email him regarding baptism in the Spirit).

[Anna]

Jake, let me express this more simply.

There is but ONE Baptism.

The Bible says so.

The Church says so.

The Bible is free from error.

So is the Church.

You can send me 1,000 Charismatic priests who call something "Baptism" in the Holy Spirit, but it is not BAPTISM.

Words mean things.

Teaching error confuses people.

They embrace one error, then perhaps another, and another...next thing ya know, they've left the Church and are preaching error.

I've seen it.

Many, many times.!

I am NOT against the Charismatic renewal movement. You don't have to keep trying to sell me on it.

But in the practice of it, terms specific to Catholic Sacraments shouldn't be applied to other things.

The Holy Father is well aware of the extraordinary gifts bestowed upon people by the Holy Spirit. He, and the Church, call them "charisms." Why doesn't the Charismatic movement follow the Church and the Holy Father and call them "charisms?" Why has the movement invented something of a pseudo sacrament, calling it Baptism in the Holy Spirit?

It's just wrong to keep using that term, as if it is a Catholic term! It is, inDouche a protestant term, a leftover from the protestant roots of the modern-day charismatic movement itself.

If there is such a thing as being baptized in water and spirit, then that occurs during the Sacrament of Baptism.

Any other "Baptism" is an invention of MAN, not instituted by Christ.

Again, I am not against the movement!!!

I am against the "word" you're using to describe a certain spiritual experience within the movement.

The WORD is used incorrectly, and is misleading.

The Holy Spirit does not mislead, it guides.

Therefore you should not be using protestant, misleading wording to describe the charisms offered by the Holy Spirit in the charismatic style of worship.

There is no such thing as BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit outside the Sacrament of Baptism offered by the Church.

I hope this better clarifies my position.

Pax Christi. <><

[Anna]

Are they infallible?

Did I ever say you made it up?

Jake, I was waving my arms and praying in tongues when you were suckling your mom.

I just object to the TERM.

IT is misleading.

Praise the Lord, always.

Pax Christi. <><

[Anna]

People leave the Church for three reasons:

Ignorance (confusion, poor catechesis)

Inordinate attachment to a particular sin forbidden by the Church

Disagreement with Doctrine

Using the term Baptism to describe charisms is wrong and misleading, in my opinion.

It confuses those who may not be as well formed as you, your parents, priests, etc.

It endangers them.

They begin using these terms, attaching very important significance to them. Many would rather be "baptized in the Holy Spirit" than to attend Mass or receive the Body and Blood of Our Lord.

In fact, they then begin seeking Sunday worship in denominations which don't celebrate the Body and Blood of Our Lord, but which do demonstrate charisms.

If you read the Holy Father's 1994 statement on charisms of the Holy Spirit, which I published in its entirety from a website, then you will see how he cautions people that there is need for discernment regarding charisms. And yes, I realize he is encouraging to those in the charismatic movement.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited November 11, 2003 by Anna

[Jake Huether]

Anna,

Please provide quotes.

You can send me 1,000 Charismatic priests who call something "Baptism" in the Holy Spirit, but it is not BAPTISM.

And they would agree. But the shere fact that 1,000 priests understand that, yet you are afraid that it is confusing, says something.

The Bible and the Church says there is ONE Baptism for the forgiveness of sins!

And you are confusing things for people. I never said "Baptism in the Spirit" is Baptism. It is a baptism, but it is not the baptism. John was Baptising people, and he said that one would come who would Baptise them with the Holy Spirit! So, there we see there was 2 Baptisms. Now, I understand that Johns Baptism wasn't Sacramental. But it was the equivelant to what Jesus commanded the Apostles to do - because it was a sign of repentance and a washing away of sins. Jesus commanded the Apostles to go and Baptise people in the NAME OF the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Not IN THE Father, and IN the Son, and IN the Holy Spirit. Baptism IN the Spirit, therefore, is different.

Please Anna, you must learn more about the Charismatic Renewal from people other than me. I urge you too.

Why doesn't the Charismatic movement follow the Church and the Holy Father and call them "charisms?" Why has the movement invented something of a pseudo sacrament, calling it Baptism in the Holy Spirit?

Because "Charisms" doesn't reflect the event. Charisms are what are OUTPOURED. They aren't the OUTPOURING. The movement didn't invent something of a pseudo sacrament. The word "Baptism" existed long before the Sacrament of Baptism was instituted. Should we strike the word Baptism from our vocabulary simply because it could be used to refer to something other than Christian Baptism in the Name of Jesus?

There is no such thing as BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit outside the Sacrament of Baptism offered by the Church.

Anna, you said yourself WORDS mean things. In this case you are correct. You state above Baptism OF the Holy Spirit. And this is not true. Baptism that you and I recieve is Baptism in the NAME OF the Holy Spirit (and Father and Son).

But there exists a Baptism IN the Holy Spirit (not IN THE NAME OF).

Yes, inDouche words mean things.

And I'm glad you are not against the movement, just the terminology. I see where you are coming from. But the more I look into it, Anna, the more I'm convinced the other way.

Jake, I was waving my arms and praying in tongues when you were suckling your mom.

That was unnecessary.

And so you were "praying in tongues"? That's cool!

So, if you have a beaf with the wording, why don't you try to talk to someone who knows more about WHY it was worded like that? In all you have posted, I haven't yet seen a quote or a source. Sorry, Anna, but I do inDouche believe these priests. You may not know them, but I do. And I know them more than I know you. Not saying I don't trust you. But aperantly you lack in the understanding of WHY it is called what it is called. And I am begining to grasp that "why".

Using the term Baptism to describe charisms is wrong and misleading, in my opinion.

They don't use the term "Baptism" alone Anna, it is always preceded by "in the Holy Spirit" so as not to confuse the Baptism one recieves IN THE NAME of the Trinity. Furthermore, Baptism in the Spirit doesn't describe Charisms. It describes the OUTPOURING of the Charisms.

Anna, honestly, you are displaying your ignorance of the subject by writing like this. True, it is confusing. The Catholic Faith is confusing (now that it has to compete with zillions of protestant faiths which have ALL lowered the benchmark). But that doesn't make it wrong. If it is confusing, then we have the obligation to research! Don't listen to me Anna, listen to those who are teaching on it, with the approval of the POPE!

If you read the Holy Father's 1994 statement on charisms of the Holy Spirit, which I published in its entirety from a website, then you will see how he cautions people that there is need for discernment regarding charisms. And yes, I realize he is encouraging to those in the charismatic movement.

inDouche, and so did I. But he never once said, "and don't use Baptism in the Holy Spirit to describe the Outpouring of Charisms because it is confusing."

This is a heated debate Anna. And I feel that I might be overstepping my bounds simply because you are older than me. I don't want to feel that way, because it makes me second guess myself. I totally understand why you are concerned with the term "Baptism in the Spirit". But there is no reason for anyone to be confused. That is why "Baptism" is followed by "in the Holy Spirit" in order to distinguish it. Of course there are people who will be confused maybe. But there are Catholics who don't even know what Confirmation means.

If you don't understand it Anna, then research it.

http://www.ccrno.org/WhatIsBaptism.php

Baptism in the Spirit

Although each person's experience of God is unique, the experience within CCR is that there is usually a moment of deeper conversion in each person's life which brings them into this deeper spiritual dimension. This is called “the Baptism in the Spirit,” or ”a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit” (as the person has usually already received the Spirit in many ways in their life). The word “baptism” is not to be confused with sacramental Baptism, but simply means immersion — immersion into God in a fuller way, and being immersed in the Holy Spirit. It is a grace of God that often brings with it new spiritual gifts, and sometimes a calling and enabling to move into new roles in serving others.

Found this at http://www.ccr.org.au/spirituality.html (and it coincides whith what I posted before - before I even read this).

This is excelent!

http://www.catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/ba...20HOLY%20SPIRIT

http://www.tsv.catholic.org.au/organisatio...harismatic.html

Well, that's it for now. I'm off to class.

[Anna]

Dear Jake,

Thank you for all the links to charismatic sites.

I believe I read all of them.

Read back.

I have, inDouche, provided you with quotes: an entire address from the Holy Father, in fact.

Others have quoted the Catholic Church's definition of "Baptism" for you.

From two of your links:

Catholic Charismatic Renewal began with a few Catholics in the United States who had a deep experience of the Holy Spirit while on a weekend retreat in 1967.

What is Distinctive about the Spirituality of CCR?

CCR originated in 1967 when some Catholics experienced the presence and power of God working in a new and deeper way in their lives. This experience of God, which they described as being “baptised in the Spirit,” drew them into a far deeper spiritual life than before. They wanted to give their lives more fully to God. They experienced his love more deeply, and appreciated even more deeply the spiritual riches to be found in the Catholic Church...

The word “baptism” is not to be confused with sacramental Baptism, but simply means immersion — immersion into God in a fuller way, and being immersed in the Holy Spirit.

So, then, "immersion" and "outpouring" are synonomous?

It seems they admit that use of this term may be confusing to some.

I am concerned for the poorly catechized, who inDouche, do become confused by it, thinking that there are two baptisms: one of water at church, which sybolically washes away sin and another one later, in which the Holy Spirit comes into us. What safeguards does the Charismatic Renewal Movement have in place to properly catechize the faithful fromsuch an error?

You say I haven't provided you with quotes, but I gave you an entire address from the Holy Father regarding the charisms of the Holy Spirit. While he discusses the outpouring of these extraordinary gifts, he does not call the outpouring "baptism."

Others here also have provided you with quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, describing the Church's definition of 'baptism.'

In short, if you look up "baptism" in official Church teaching documents, the charismatic definition is absent.

You say that there are abuses within the movement. I think that one abuse is using the term "baptism" incorrectly in this instance. it is an invention of Catholic laymen from the 1960's, or from their protestant predecessors.

I don't doubt the sincerity of the movement, the pope's accetance of it, the outpouring of the Spirit, nor the extraordinary charisms it produces. I don't feel the need to study it; I've lived it.

I just object to using the term Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or Baptism in the Holy Spirit, as it calls to mind the baptism which Jesus described to the Apostles, and that baptism which He described to the Apostles is carried out by the Church, in the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation.

Sometimes we do use the term baptism to mean immersing, such as baptism of fire, describing a time of trial, but not a religious experience involving the Holy Spirit!!!

The term "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" conjures up one understanding among the poorly informed:

"John, as you know, baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit, and within the next few days.' Acts 1:4-5

Why wouldn't someone think that this "outpouring" is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, as described by Jesus?

In short, as far as the Charismatic Renewal movement has aided the Church and increased the faithfulness of her members, I support it. However, the movement has also caused confusion and led to some members leaving the Body, which I don't support.

I feel that term causes confusion.

And I think you can see how it causes division.

Pax Chrisit. <><

Edited November 11, 2003 by Anna