Baptism In The Spirit...

[Jake Huether]

Sorry for the repeats.

Hmmm. I don't like this computer.

[Anna]

Hey Jake,

Hope you have a good weekend, too, and a good report at your check up.

I hope you don't think my posts sound like I'm fighting with you.

I don't mean to be fighting, I mean to be clarifying.

What I am saying is that Scripture calls for Baptism of Water and Spirit.

St. John the Baptist said, "I baptize with water, but One will come Who will baptize with the Holy Spirit." That "One," of course, was Jesus, who instituted the Sacrament of Baptism. That Sacrament is a baptism of water and the Holy Spirit. There is no separate "Baptism of the Holy Spirit!"

Since the Charismatic Renewal movement was started in the Protestant camp, there are a few errors that need to be weeded out. One such error, I would think, is this constant phrasiology of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit," which it is not.

Words mean things.

Our Church does not err, and we should be careful not to also.

When we borrow phrases such as "Baptism of the Holy Spirit," it implies that we didn't receive the Holy Spirit when we were baptized into the Church. You said this yourself when you said:

  So, when we are baptised, we are baptised with WATER.  Not necessarily Spirit. 

Now people who are not well grounded in the Church's teachings get carried away with all the emotionalism, and suddenly, they're throwing the "Body" out with the "Baptismal Water," and seeking worship services where they can sing, clap, wave their arms, pray in tongues, hoot and holler, or what-have-you, instead of attending Holy Mass. These folks see "charisms" of the Holy Spirit as being more important than "Sacraments" instituted by Christ. So, they leave the Sacraments and go where they experience more 'charisms.'

You've said that the Charismatic Movement is "under" the Church, but where are the documents to guide this movement? Many are a free-for-all, with participants exercising their own pseudo-theologies...(albiet, their hearts are in the right place) but what authority are they obeying?

Pope John Paul II Speaks on Charisms

General Audience March 9, 1994

The Holy Spirit, the giver of every gift and the main principle of the Church's vitality, does not only work through the sacraments. According to St. Paul, he who distributes to each his own gifts as he wills (1 Cor. 12:11), pours out into the People of God a great wealth of graces both for prayer and contemplation and for action.

They are charisms: lay people receive them too, especially in relation to their mission in the Church and society. The Second Vatican Council stated this in connection with St. Paul: "The Holy Spirit also distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. By these gifts he makes them fit and ready to undertake various tasks and offices for the renewal and building up of the Church, as it is written (in St. Paul): 'the manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit.' (1 Cor. 12.7)

St. Paul highlighted the multiplicity and variety of charisms in the early Church: some are extraordinary, such as healings, the gift of prophecy or that of tongues; others are simpler, given for the ordinary fulfillment of the tasks assigned in the community.

As a result of Paul's text, charisms are often thought of as extraordinary gifts, which primarily marked the beginning of the life of the Church.

Vatican Council II called attention to charisms in their quality as gifts belonging to the ordinary life of the Church and not necessarily having an extraordinary or miraculous nature. In addition, it should be kept in mind that the primary or principle aim of many charisms is not the personal sanctification of those who receive them, but the service of others and the welfare of the Church... in that it concerns the growth of Christ's Mystical Body.

As St. Paul told us and the Council repeated, these charisms result from the free choice and gift of the Holy Spirit. In a special way the Triune God shows his sovereign power in the gifts. This power is not subject to any antecedent rule, to any particular discipline or to a plan of interventions established once and for all. According to St. Paul, he distributes his gifts to each "as he wills" (1 Cor. 12:11) It is an eternal will of love, whose freedom and gratuitousness is revealed in the action carried out by the Holy Spirit--Gift in the economy of salvation. Through this sovereign freedom and gratuitousness, charisms are also give to the laity, as the Church's history shows.

We cannot but admire the great wealth of gifts bestowed by the Holy Spirit on lay people as members of the Church in our age as well. Each of them has the necessary ability to carry out the tasks to which he is called for the welfare of the Christian people, and the work's salvation, if he is open, docile, and faithful to the Holy Spirit's action.

Diversity and unity of charisms:Need to recognize and discern them

However, we must also turn our attention to another aspect of St. Paul's teaching and that of the Church, an aspect that applies to every type of ministry and to charisms: their diversity and variety cannot harm unity. "There are different gifts but the same Spirit; there are different ministries but the same Lord." (1 Cor. 12:4-5)

Paul asked that these differences be respected because not everyone can expect to carry out the same role contrary to God's plan and the Spirit's gift and contrary to the most elementary laws of any social structure. However, the Apostle equally stressed the need for unity, which itself answers a sociological demand, but which in the Christian community should even more be a reflection of the divine unity. One Spirit, One Lord. Thus, one Church!

At the beginning of the Christian era extraordinary things were accomplished under the influence of charisms, both extraordinary ones and those which could be called little, humble, everyday charisms. This has always been the case in the Church and is so in our era as well, generally in a hidden way, but sometimes in a striking way, when God desires it for the good of his Church.

In our day, as in the past, a great number of lay people have contributed to the Church's spiritual and pastoral growth. We can say that today too there are many lay people who, because of their charisms, work as good, genuine witnesses of faith and love... out of fidelity to a holy vocation, who are involved in serving the common good, in establishing justice, in improving the living conditions of the poor and needy, in taking care of the disabled, in welcoming refugees and in achieving peace throughout the world.

In the community life and pastoral practice of the Church, charisms must be recognized but also discerned, as the Synod Fathers recalled in 1987.

Certainly, the Spirit blows where he wills; one can never expect to impose rules and conditions on him.

The Christian community, though, has the right to be informed by its Pastors about the authenticity of charisms and the reliability of those who claim to have received them. The Council recalled the need for prudence in this area, especially when it regards extraordinary charisms.

The Apostolic Exhortation Christifideles Laici also stressed the "no charism dispenses a person from reference and submission to the Pastors of the Church." These norms of prudence are easily understandable and apply to all, both clerics and lay people.

That having been said, we would like to repeat with the Council and the Exhortation cited above the "charisms should be received in gratitude both on the part of the one who receives them, and also on the part of the entire Church." For these charisms there arises "for each of the faithful the right and duty of exercising them for the good of men and for building up the Church."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So, you see, the Holy Father does not describe the gifts and charisms as "Baptism of the Holy Spirit," and he even urges prudence in discerning the extraordinary charisms, such as tongues, prohecy, etc.

I've also searched to find any confirmation that the Pope speaks or prays in tongues himself, as you claimed, but I found nothing. I'm sure if he had publicly prayed in tongues at a conference, it would've been reported around the world...so, yeah, I'm skeptical.

Sorry.

I'm pretty sure I know where you're coming from, but I still say, Catholics need to choose their words more accurately and more carefully. Souls could be at stake.

Edited November 7, 2003 by Anna

[Anna]

Jake,

I've read both of the links you provided, and it all basically says the same stuff, but one thing did surprise me a bit:

International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services (ICCRS) is based in Rome and acts as the centre of communications within the worldwide Charismatic Renewal. It also serves as liaison between the Charismatic Renewal and the Vatican. Catholic Charismatic Renewal is active in 130 countries, and is fully supported and encouraged by the Bishops of the Church.

I'm not really sure what to make of that...The renewal movement doesn't seem to fall under any Vatican Congregation, but rather has a middle-man type of agency that acts as a liason between the movement and the Vatican????

[PedroX]

Not that it matters a whole lot, but I'm with Anna on this. This is one of the important distinctions between us and Prots. As a convert, I know that most Prots believe that you recieve the Holy Spirit when you "ask Jesus into your heart". Others believe you recieve the Holy Spirit when you are "Baptized in (or by) the Holy Spirit" Water Baptism is just a symbol of your salvation.

For us, it is a sacrement, conferring the Holy Spirit on us. It is an important distinction. Thanks Anna as always for your clarity.

peace...

[BLAZEr]

Jake,

I've read both of the links you provided, and it all basically says the same stuff, but one thing did surprise me a bit:

I'm not really sure what to make of that...The renewal movement doesn't seem to fall under any Vatican Congregation, but rather has a middle-man type of agency that acts as a liason between the movement and the Vatican????

I've said this in another place as well . . . Fr. Raneiro Cantalamessa, who is Pope John Paul II's Papal Household Preacher is the Italian Representative to the Charismatic Renewal . . . he specifically says that the Charismatic Renewal is NOT a movement, that it does NOT have an ecclesial nature . . . he says that the Charismatic Renewal is a Gift to the Church in this age and is an expression of the Spiritual life of Catholic Christians. However, it does not have an ecclesial organization or structure and must be guided by the ordinary Christian path. Basically, it's a big huge prayer group of people loosely connected with each other . . .

[Jake Huether]

I agree Anna. "Baptism in the Spirit" doesn't do the actual incident justice, and it could cause potential conflict. I know, as I stated before, that we recieve the Spirit when we are Baptized. Baptism in the Spirit doesn't mean that we are "Baptised" again with the Spirit. It would better be described as the OUTPOURING of the gifts of the Spirit (which we are given in FULLNESS at Confirmation).

I know that Baptism in the Spirit isn't a Sacrament and I made special care to mention that.

I've looked the Pope "speaking in tongues" up on the internet to no avail either. But I was told by someone who actually heard him that he did. Oh well, it doesn't really matter I suppose. He approves of the Charismatic Renewal, so I suppose that says something.

I guess I'll just finish with this:

My family and my family's friends are involved. They speak in tongues, prophisie, heal, etc. THis isn't simply laity. THis includes Priests, decons, religious, close friends to the Pope, and many many orthodox Catholics. I'm not going to make the general statment that EVERYone who speaks in tongues is legit. I wont even say that the entire "Charismatic renewal" is Catholic.

But the CAtholic Charismatic renewal IS a gift. And like all gifst it can, and is, abused.

Thank you so much for the wealth of info on the subject. I agree with it. I think, "Baptism in the Spirit", when you read it in context to what it actually means is legit. But you are right, it can confuse the "Baptism" we recieve as a Sacrament (since it itself uses the word Baptism).

Thanks again, and God bless...

See ya Monday! And have an excelent Lord's Day!

[Undercover]

if you read what he said, he said that the term "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" is referring to an extra "outpouring" of the Spirit.. not necessarily an extra baptism.. so in most cases the Holy Spirit would already be a part of your life, this is just an extra boost or something..

[Robyn]

Words of wisdom :)

[Anna]

I read what he said.

But the Bible calls for a baptism of water and the Holy Spirit.

The Church provides that in one sacrament.

To keep calling something else---anything else!---by the name that Jesus established for something entirely different is, at the very best, confusing, and it simply shouldn't be done.

Call it "outpouring," if that is what it is!!!!

I'll say again, and again, and again.....

Words mean things.

Pax Christi. <><

[Undercover]

I read what he said.

But the Bible calls for a baptism of water and the Holy Spirit.

The Church provides that in one sacrament.

To keep calling something else---anything else!---by the name that Jesus established for something entirely different is, at the very best, confusing, and it simply shouldn't be done.

Call it "outpouring," if that is what it is!!!!

I'll say again, and again, and again.....

Words mean things.

Pax Christi. <><

in Acts 1 it refers to it as Baptism of the Holy Spirit... pretty sure that's where Pentecostals get that idea, and since it is shown to be related to the gift of tongues in Acts 2, I'd say they're related. Yes, words mean something, but they can also mean something else.. try not getting so upset just by seeing the word "Baptism" but looking at what it means. I believe it's referring to the idea of having the Holy Spirit wash over you, like with the tongues of fire.

[Paladin D]

Those who are baptised in water, are also baptised in the Holy Spirit. There are two kinds of gifts of the Spirit...

This first set is given to those who are baptised in water, call it the "default" set if you will...

1 - Wisdom (which helps a person value the things of heaven)

2 - Understanding (which enables the person to grasp the truths of religion)

3 - Counsel (which helps one see and correctly choose the best practical approach in serving God)

4 - Fortitude (which steels a person's resolve in overcoming obstacles to living the faith)

5 - Knowledge (which helps one see the path to follow and the dangers to one's faith)

6 - Piety (which fills a person with confidence in God and an eagerness to serve him)

7 - Fear of the Lord (which makes a person keenly aware of God's sovereignty and the respect due to him and his laws)

...then there's the second kind of gifts of the Spirit, which are called charisms. They are extraordinary favors granted principally for the help of others. In 1 Corinthians 12:6-11, nine charisms are mentioned...

1 - Speaking with wisdom

2 - Speaking with knowledge

3 - Faith

4 - Healing

5 - Miracles

6 - Prophecy

7 - Discerning of spirits

8 - Tongues

9 - Interpreting speeches

...not everyone can claim any of the nine charisms. Of course there are people who have one or a few of these, but not everyone who claims to have them, really does have them. We must becareful.

[Paladin D]

So what I believe Jake is refering to, is not a "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". But the nine charisms that...

"Are extraordinary favors granted principally for the help of others."

...if he's not refering to that, then what is he refering to?

Edited November 10, 2003 by Paladin D

[Jake Huether]

Don't want to beat a dead horse on the phorum. But I am seeing it clearer:

From the Catechism, I know that when we are baptised in water we recieve the Spirit (because we are then Children of God). The Catechism explains, however, that we do not recieve the fullness of the Spirit. We recieve His fullness in Confirmation (like the Apostels on Penticost). What hit me were these passages:

Acts 8:16-20 When the Apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted

the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. The two went

down to these people and prayed that they might receive the

Holy Spirit. It had not as yet come down upon any one of them

since they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord

Jesus. Simon observed that it was through the laying on of

hands that the apostles conferred the Spirit ... (NAB).

The Bible says that they still needed to "recieve the Spirit", even though they had been Baptised! This is, "Confirmation". Where they would recieve the fullness of the Spirit, conferred by the Apostles.

Also, (Acts 10:46-48):

46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,

47 Can anyone keep these people from being baptised with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.

48 So he ordered that they be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

So, we see here that they had "recieved the Holy Spirit", although they had not yet been Baptised with water in the name of Jesus!

Also,

John 3:5

Jesus answered, I tell you the truth, no-one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

He didn't say that we must be Baptised with water and spirit, only Born of water and Spirit.

We are born of water at birth.

We are born of Spirit when we are Baptised with water in the name of Jesus.

These particular passage seems to seperate Baptism "with water" and recieving the Spirit in Confirmation AND the OUTPOURING of the gifts of the Spirit. It seperates them as three events.

So, we see from the Catechism and from Scripture that there are three things:

Baptism with water - in which we are forgiven our sins and recieve the Father Son and Spirit, though we have NOT yet recieved the fullness of the Spirit.

Confirmation - in which we recieve the fullness of the Spirit. We recieve his Gift.

And then the OUTPOURING of the gift of the Spirit (Baptism in the Spirit).

So again, "Baptised in the Spirit" is legit. We say in our creed that we believe in ONE Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Which is true! Baptism in the Spirit doesn't forgive our sins. There is only ONE Baptism which does! That is, when we are Baptised with water in the name of Jesus! Correct me if I'm wrong, But no where is it found in Scripture, or in the Catechism, that there IS one Baptism PERIOD. There IS one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. But there can be another Baptism, say for instance, Baptism in the Spirit. Our creed only would confirm that this particular Baptism doesn't forgive us our sins. But even in Scripture John the Baptist tells us that Jesus would "Baptise you in the Spirit".

Can you comment on this?

[Jake Huether]

...not everyone can claim any of the nine charisms.  Of course there are people who have one or a few of these, but not everyone who claims to have them, really does have them.  We must becareful.

Those who are baptised in water, are also baptised in the Holy Spirit. 

As the quotes that I posted would indicate, this is not true. We recieve the Spirit (though not in His fullness) when we are baptised in water.

The Gentiles had recieved the Spirit, though they hadn't yet been baptised.

There are two kinds of gifts of the Spirit...

This first set is given to those who are baptised in water, call it the "default" set if you will...

1 - Wisdom (which helps a person value the things of heaven)

2 - Understanding (which enables the person to grasp the truths of religion)

3 - Counsel (which helps one see and correctly choose the best practical approach in serving God)

4 - Fortitude (which steels a person's resolve in overcoming obstacles to living the faith)

5 -  Knowledge (which helps one see the path to follow and the dangers to one's faith)

6 - Piety (which fills a person with confidence in God and an eagerness to serve him)

7 - Fear of the Lord (which makes a person keenly aware of God's sovereignty and the respect due to him and his laws)

I would say that this is almost correct. In water Baptism we are forgiven our sins (original and actual) and we are welcomed into the Family of God. He becomes our Father! But these gifts aren't given at baptism. They are given at confirmation, when we recieve the fullness of the Spirit.

...then there's the second kind of gifts of the Spirit, which are called charisms.  They are extraordinary favors granted principally for the help of others.  In 1 Corinthians 12:6-11, nine charisms are mentioned...

1 - Speaking with wisdom

2 - Speaking with knowledge

3 - Faith

4 - Healing

5 - Miracles

6 - Prophecy

7 - Discerning of spirits

8 - Tongues

9 - Interpreting speeches

These also come with confirmation, because they are a part of the Spirit, which we recieve IN FULLNESS. But these gifts are not automatically OPENED. When we are "Baptised in the Spirit", then these gifts are opened (maybe one, maybe all). It is the OUTPOURING of these gifts that is refered to as the Baptism in the Spirit.

When John the Baptist told the desciples that One will come who is greater than him that will Baptise them with the Spirit, he was refering to the outpouring of these gifts! Christ would enable us to OPEN the gifts which the Spirit would provide through his death and resurection! The significace of these gifts (and the Opening of the - Baptism in the Spirit) is as you said, it is the building of the Kingdom of God, His Church.

[PedroX]

Jake,

It is important to note, that in Acts 8:16-20 it is referring to people who had been baptized "in the name of Jesus only" this by itself is not a full baptism (since you must be baptized in the full Trinity) and may be the reason they had not recieved the Holy Spirit. Perhaps Theologian in Training, or others could shed some more light on this.

peace...