Masturbation

[Briguy]

Hi Cam42, Still waiting for your reply to the one line of discussion we were having. Hope you are well!

In Christ,
Brian

[soberisms]

is masturbating while thinking of your girlfriend or wife a sin?

[Kilroy the Ninja]

yes

[Cam42]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Apr 22 2005, 07:51 AM']Cam writes:
"""Masturbation does lead to other things that are bad, because it attacks chastity. It can be argued that masturbation can lead to more serious sexual deviancy. Because masturbation is a psychological action as well as physical one, when one becomes addicted, he will eventually want to act out on those fantasies. He has sinned precisely because he has thoughts are not chaste AND has acted upon them. The action is the masturbation. That is the sinful act. Therefore there is no separation between the action and the sin, but there can be separation between the thought and the sin.

And to use your allegory about chocolate.....having sex is not wrong, but having sex with someone that you are not married to is, even if it is with yourself"""

Cam, what you write is a decent argument. However, it is based on assumptions. It assumes that M is bad from the start and so naturally there is a progression to something even worse. It assumes that the deviant person is not already deviant but becomes that way through the M. The fact is that the person who goes on to heavy porn, adultery, rape is headed in that direction for one of two reasons. They are mentally sick. They have a chemical or brain defect. OR they are open to satanic influences (controlled by evil). M is not known to be the root cause of deviant behavior in males. Frankly, because most guys do it and only a very very small percent become deviants. The statistics could not be anymore against your theory, as good as your theory sounds. Doctrines or teachings are sometimes not supported by reality, even though we wish they were. This may sound funny but deviants are deviants because they are deviants. They are not so because they acted on a natural drive. I will let you respond before I go on. Thanks for the appropriate discussion on a very tricky subject to talk about. God's blessings to you Cam!

In Christ,
Brian[/quote]
Masturbation is bad from the start. It is an attack on chastity. So there is no flawed premise.

The human person is not a deviant person by nature. He is sinful, yes, but that doesn't mean that masturbation is an acceptable action. Statistics don't prove anything....they can be manipulated. It happens all the time. I am not saying that you are the one doing the manipulation, but we must look at the sources.

Insofar as deviant actions could be influenced by satanic influences, I totally think that is reasonable. Sin is always promoted by Satan.

Masturbation is not simply a malady among men. Women are just as likely to masturbate as men.

Doctrine is most certainly supported by reality. Precisely because the doctrine itself is real.

Your assertion that deviants are deviants because they are deviants is at odds with the Catholic position. Deviants are deviants because of sin. Not because they are deviants. Good people do deviant things all the time. To make that assertion is to pass judgment on a person. That is incorrect.

In the case of masturbation, deviants are deviant, because of sin. Not because of the natural drive. That action which is not ordered to God is sinful. It doesn't matter what the sin is....in this case it is masturbation. Are there outstanding influences....yes....what do I mean? Simple....a person is more likely to watch a pornographic movie rather than a baseball game on tv, while masturbating. Agreed? So, this can lead to more....it can lead to premarital or extra marital sex, precisely because the sin which is now multifaceted, starting with masturbation, progressing to pornography, is now a thought that it could be a reality (ie the deviant sex upon which he is masturbating). Is the person who is in a sinful way more likely to seek out this sinful fantasy than the person who is watching a baseball game?

So, my allegory works precisely because the premise is not flawed.

Cam

[Briguy]

Cam, I know what you are trying to prove because the argument sounds good. We agree that the deviant person is in Sin, or rather commiting sin by certain acts. Yes, M is more likely to happen when a person is watching porn then a baseball game but what has lead the person to that point where they justify that porn is OK to watch. That is the issue. The person who crosses that line in his mind is heading in that direction because of a mind/heart issue not because they M. once and a while. A high percentage of people, many Catholic, M. A much much lower percent watch porn. A incredibly lower percent of people rape or sexually abuse another person. For your assertion to be true there would have to be some correlation between the percentage of people who M and the percentage that commit deviant behavior. There is none. Trust me, I am a social worker by trade and see statistical information and besides most of what I say is common sense and just reality. I hope that makes sense. Yes, people who rape others M, but so does almost everyone else, therefore there is no direct correlation. I said above that people are deviant because they are deviant. That was poorly put and you were right to question that. I am saying that the deviant behavior is a product of Sin, illness, etc... and is going to happen unless the person is stopped along the way. M or no M the person is heading in that direction. Haven't you ever heard that Rape is about the power and control? not the arousal and sex. That is because there is way more to it then some sexual feeling. I'll let you respond to that.

In Christian Love,
Brian

[return2truth]

I believe mastrubation is self-defeating. I can personally attest to the fact that over the years my "sexual fantasies" during M have needed to become more and more unusual in order to keep it intersting. I had become addicted to M and though I grew bored of it, I couldn't stop and the only way I could keep it interesting was through increasingly more "deviant" imagery in my mind or through porn. It never extended to children or violent acts, but I somtimes wonder what might have happened. For me it was like an out of control snow ball getting bigger and bigger and harder to stop.

My sex life evolved into something completely self-centered. I had absolutely no need for a parter of any kind; all I needed was my imagination. My ability to give love was severly stunted because of this. I was still a kind and generous person, friendly and personable, but I was very uncomfortable being affectionate: hugs and kisses felt like a violation to me. Everyday I felt like I was falling more and more into my own private world where everything and anything could be permissible to me. Yes I can see well where this could have lead me.

I am so very fortunate I have let Jesus into my life. He has helped to free me from my addiction and I am becoming much more open. Through the light he shines on my darkness, I have been able to proceed with a rational mind, instead of being driven by my passions.

Edited April 26, 2005 by return2truth

[Carnanc]

masturbation is wrong. if you did a survey and asked how many people feel completly comfortable with it, which you would expect if it was truly a natural activity as many suppose, I believe most would have a natural insight that it is a disordered and sinful action.

[return2truth]

[quote name='slywakka250' date='Apr 26 2005, 03:31 PM'] masturbation is wrong. if you did a survey and asked how many people feel completly comfortable with it, which you would expect if it was truly a natural activity as many suppose, I believe most would have a natural insight that it is a disordered and sinful action. [/quote]
If you were take this survey from members of this board I would agree with your presumption. However, taken from a broad cross-section of the American populous, I bet those who think it is both disordered and sin would represent a very small percentage.

[MichaelFilo]

Just to jump in. You seem to have misconstrued slywakka250's post.
He was not stating that many people would agree it is naturally disordered, simply that they do not feel totally comfortable about it. The fact that this is true would lead one to understand it's nature of being disordered. Man is always aspiring to order (which is found in God the Father, the Alpha and the Omega), and so even if accepting a practice, cannot rest entirely in the practice.

God bless,
Mikey

[Priscilla]

P'raps someone should set up a poll on it then?

(I can't set up polls on these boards - always goes wrong for me)

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 27 2005, 05:54 AM'] P'raps someone should set up a poll on it then?

(I can't set up polls on these boards - always goes wrong for me) [/quote]
Done.

[Briguy]

Return2truth,
Thank you for that very open and honest post. I for one appreciate the heart you put into it. It is true that M can be abused, as can most things, if you think about it. I raised an earlier argument about eating chocalate being the same type of thing. I will say that again just with eating in general. To eat is fine but to over eat and eat to the point where you are obese is not fine. I am a social worker for physically disabled folks and the elderly. I see often the effect that obesity has on the body and mind. Anyway, the point was that the eating was fine it is the gluttoney(sp?) that is the problem. So I believe it is with M. It can be done in execess and in relation to Sin. We are told in scripture to "search our own heart". We can see the sin. If M is causing sin then stop, or through prayer and searching get things back under control. Do whatever it takes. If eating doughnuts is making you overweight, then stop eating them, it is that easy. Guard your hearts and sin not is what I am getting at.

In our culture we have heard enough negative about M that to feel uncomfortable is not surprising. The fact that it is a VERY VERY private act also plays into that. No One would want others seeing them in the act, therefore there is an uncomfortableness to it. NO ONE would want somebody to see them eat a dozen Krispy Cremes at one time, either. Most over eating is done by people alone because they are uncomfortable with it.

In Christ,
Brian

[Cam42]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Apr 26 2005, 07:41 AM'] Cam, I know what you are trying to prove because the argument sounds good. We agree that the deviant person is in Sin, or rather commiting sin by certain acts. Yes, M is more likely to happen when a person is watching porn then a baseball game but what has lead the person to that point where they justify that porn is OK to watch. That is the issue. The person who crosses that line in his mind is heading in that direction because of a mind/heart issue not because they M. once and a while. A high percentage of people, many Catholic, M. A much much lower percent watch porn. A incredibly lower percent of people rape or sexually abuse another person. For your assertion to be true there would have to be some correlation between the percentage of people who M and the percentage that commit deviant behavior. There is none. Trust me, I am a social worker by trade and see statistical information and besides most of what I say is common sense and just reality. I hope that makes sense. Yes, people who rape others M, but so does almost everyone else, therefore there is no direct correlation. I said above that people are deviant because they are deviant. That was poorly put and you were right to question that. I am saying that the deviant behavior is a product of Sin, illness, etc... and is going to happen unless the person is stopped along the way. M or no M the person is heading in that direction. Haven't you ever heard that Rape is about the power and control? not the arousal and sex. That is because there is way more to it then some sexual feeling. I'll let you respond to that.

In Christian Love,
Brian [/quote]
What has lead that person to justify porn? Deviant behavior. That particular deviant behavior is sexual in nature. So is masturbation. Masturbation may seem to be harmless and "natural," but it errodes the virtue of chastity. When that virtue has been sufficently erroded, then what happens? There is a total breakdown.

It doesn't matter what the stats say. One person who watches porn is one person too many. It is a sin against chastity. One person who masturbates is one person too many. It is a sin against chastity. Do you see what I am getting at? I don't really care what society at large thinks. Being Catholic is not always about being cultural. Our culture is increasingly saying that masturbation and porn is acceptable. There is a correlation between the two. You say so. That is incorrect. Call me counter cultural, fine, but I know what is sinful. Precisely, because the Church teaches it. It is part of my culture.

I totally disagree with your statement:
[quote]For your assertion to be true there would have to be some correlation between the percentage of people who M and the percentage that commit deviant behavior. There is none.[/quote]

Precisely because your premise is incorrect. Masturbation IS deviant behavior in and of itself. It is a sin against chastity.

My proof:
[quote]By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability. (CCC 2352)[/quote]

What I am saying is just as real as what you assert.

You are saying that masturbation is a product of sin. We agree. And we agree that the person must be stopped. But we should not start with the premise that masturbation is acceptable, that is the flawed premise. And that is the ultimate undoing of your position. You admit that yourself when you say that masturbation is a product of sin.
[quote]I am saying that the deviant behavior is a product of Sin....[/quote]

Cam

N.B. I didn't say anything about rape. Leave that out of it. It is a fallacy and sets up a red herring.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote]NO ONE would want somebody to see them eat a dozen Krispy Cremes at one time, either.[/quote]

If it was another doughnut company, I would.

[toledo_jesus]

Modern psychology doesn't even classify masturbation as sexually deviant, though excessive masturbation and fetishism qualify.

Did you know Graham crackers were invented to help Victorian men control their wild lusts? The flour was thought to take away sexual impulses.