Masturbation

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Why is this thread 6 pages anyway?


How much more can we discuss this?

[Priscilla]

Yeah - I think the poll says it all.

[argent_paladin]

Even after six pages, I think these three arguments could be highlighted:

1. Argument from natural law. God created us, designing us for his own particular purpose. We can discover the purposes of his creation by his gift of intellect. He created our sexual organs for a special purpose. That purpose is to reproduce, "to be fruitful and multiply" and also to be unified with our spouse "the two became one flesh." Masturbation achieves neither of these purposes. Therefore, we are abusing what God has given us. Masturbation subverts the greatest of God's gifts, the human body, to a purpose that God didn't intend. That is what sin is, a "missing the mark", a failure do God's will.

2. Personalist Argument (of JP2): We are to treat human beings as persons not objects. We are called to love one another, not use one another. That is why fornication and contraception is wrong. It treats people, not as persons, but as instruments to satisfy our own lust, to gain pleasure. And we can also treat ourselves as objects. Masturbation makes us treat our body as an object, an "amusement park", a pleasure-giving machine, rather than made in the image of God.

3. Scriptural argument. Jesus said "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Now, technically, masturbation doesn't have to include sexual fantasy, but it almost always does. Thus, it violates Jesus's teaching against lusting after a woman in our hearts. And we shouldn't take the words overly literally, thinking that it only refers to actively looking and not to remembering or imagining. And do we really think that Jesus would condemn someone for looking lustfully but not for masturbation?

[Briguy]

Hey ap, Are you saying that i did not make one valid point in the whole thread?? I always try to give credit when credit is do. Oh well, I guess that is why it is called "home court advantage" The fans don't really care what the other team says or does because they can only love and accept their team. BTW, your number 2 and 3 conclusions would not hold up in a second grade debate. There about as weak as anything John Kerry said on the campaign trail last fall and that is pretty bad

We operate on different premises. I believe that "sex" needs two people and therefore M is not sex and I also see the Bible as only addressing sexually deviant behavior as being with two people. M is more like eating or exercising. It can be done with or without sin. I will agree that it may be harder to control then other things we do with our body and that is why we are to to search and guard our hearts.

I guess we can conclude this discussion. It has been very good I must say, even if no one could admit I made some good points. Cam, you did make good points and I thank you for your time and effort.

In Christ who saves,
Brian

Edited April 29, 2005 by Briguy

[cmotherofpirl]

So the fact that the Church has always taught that masturbation is a sin doesn't bother you?

Can you dismiss history so lightly and substitute your own opinions for Christian teaching?

[Jaime]

[quote]M is more like eating or exercising. It can be done with or without sin. [/quote]

I would venture a guess that most (if not all) people who engage in this behavior are incorporating fantasies into this activity. You cannot fantasize about someone without objectifying them. This is what the Holy Father is referring to.

If you are objectifying someone, they are included without their knowledge. This is part of why the Church declares this to be a sinful act.

[argent_paladin]

2nd grade? The maxim not to treat others merely as a means originated from Immanuel Kant, one of the most brilliant philosophers of all time. The love/use distinction comes straight from "Love and Responsibility" by Karol Wojtyla, the most gifted philosopher of sexuality in the 20th century.
You are right M is not sex, it is an abuse of the sexual organs. It is misuse. It is like smoking crack, which manipulates the brain for pleasure. M manipulates the sexual organs for pleasure.

And I don't know why you think linking lust to M is far-fetched. I would think they always go together. And yes, M is like exercising... exercising your lusts. And would you say that lust is by definition sexually deviant behavior? if so, isn't looking at a woman behavior done singly? If so, then that undermines your argument. Christ isn't condemning the woman, but the one who lusts after her, even if he does so alone, in his bedroom. It is equal to adultery.

And when did I say or imply that you didn't make a single good point? In fact, I implied the opposite when I said that certain points could still be hilighted, meaning that they had been brought up before. But all you did was insult the level of the arguments, complain that the playing field was not level, all without offering a shried of support for either accusation.

[return2truth]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 29 2005, 07:56 AM']
...If you are objectifying someone, they are included without their knowledge. This is part of why the Church declares this to be a sinful act. [/quote]
This argument doesn't hold in cases where someone imagines a non-existent person. Therefore no one is really being objectified.

I think one of the reasons why this debate continues is because M is a sin that is so easy for a person to give in to and yet remain an otherwise devote Catholic and/or Christian. M doesn't always lead to additional deviant behaviors, nor does it necessarily become an addiction to all of those who indulge in it. It is very easy to justify it as any of the many other indulgences devout people will permit themselves from time to time.

In my opinion, M is one of those elements in our lives that can be used to gauge just how truly devoted we are to God when we are alone and have no one to impress with outward displays of piety or our good deeds. Even when I considered myself to be a pagan, I felt bad about M because every time I gave into it I was attaching myself more and more to my body without any regard for the spiritual realms I was otherwise professing to seek.

If given a choice between God and M, how can anyone in their right mind not choose their salvation? The answer is that some people don't believe there has to be choice because M is not covered by God's plan. As a good Catholic, I am obliged to believe that it is in fact part of His plan, but I don't accept that simply because it is required. I do it because it is a way I can choose to honor Our Father. It is a way I can say, "Not me today, Lord, but you. What can I do for you, instead?"

Some people believe they can have their cake and eat it too. The same people will find ways of justifying their actions with a completely different analogy.

[-I---Love]

I am happy for you return2truth.

Peace+

[son_of_angels]

Masturbation is wrong.... However, the FACT is that almost all, if not all, will masturbate at least once before leaving High School. This tells me something, that, while God does not condone or accept this act as being right, it is something that one may wrestle with, and fail at times, without neccessarily enterring into a consciouss state of mortal sin, so long as that act does not encourage the sin of lust. It is something to be avoided, amen, and something that, for most men, constitutes a venial sin, but also one which can lead, as with most venial sins, someone away from a greater sin, one that involves others. Well these are my thoughts, and I don't know everything. I am open to correction and reproof.

[guardsman]

From this thread it sounds like only men "M". Yeah, right. It seems like a hideous topic. We're not supposed to do it or talk about it. But I don't think it is "the unforgiveable sin." If you're committing sin, repent and confess, and stop doing it. Easier said than done, stopping sinning and all. Give it your best try. Where's the poll?

[kateri05]

s_o_a, just because everyone does it doesn't make it right! and its something that for men AND women, constitutes a mortal sin:

knowledge of the sin, full consent of the will to do it and serious matter : using one's body for pleasure, not the proper use of the GIFT of sexuality that God has given us.

as long as those conditions are met for either sex, its wrong wrong wrong.

[jezic]

i want a friend to see this so i have to save it from the "end" of the board.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Next time just send them a link.


Since this thread has reappeared, it's getting closed. It was dead and should remain this way.

God Bless.