Gregorian Chant

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 17 2005, 09:19 PM'] As for Raphael....he is just a really holy person. [/quote]

[a girl called Ezra]

Okay, humor is important in life. You keep poking (;-)! Are you a priest or something like that? You get a flag when you have an education in religion on this website? Is this a site that is linked to a university?

Why do you call Raphael holy, you mean that he is very religious? I'm more a Michel Angelo fan (hahahahah), just poking too ;-)!

What does cam42 mean?

I'm not at all curious, just like to know everything ;-)!

Do you know if there are other europeans visiting this site often?

Maybe you can answer a question regarding the catholic religion for me?
I wonder why catholics whoreship people like a pope and figures like the mother Mary while God told us (through Mozes) in the ten commandments not to worship others then God himself?

Can you please explain how the chatolic religion justify's that?

Thanks for the trouble,

Ezra

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I was studying in Europe (Austria) last semester, and occasionally visited phatmass from there, does that count?



... Catholics don't worship the Pope. And we honor Mary as the Mother of God--of Jesus, the Savior of the world, but Mary is not God, we know that, we just recognize that God has blessed her in her obedience to God (her faith).

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='a girl called Ezra' date='Apr 17 2005, 09:38 PM'] Okay, humor is important in life. You keep poking (;-)! Are you a priest or something like that? You get a flag when you have an education in religion on this website? Is this a site that is linked to a university? [/quote]
No, I'm not a priest. We do have a few priests here and I was in seminary, trying to find out if God wanted me to be a priest, but I discerned that He didn't.

You get a flag when you demonstrate that you are faithful and follow the teachings of the Church (you also get the title "Church Faithful"). You get a flag and a cross when you are faithful and do a good job defending the Church (you get the title "Church Militant"). You get a flag and a cross and a little orb with a cross and crown if you are faithful and are an expert in Catholicism (you also get the title "Church Scholar").

This site is not linked to a university, but it is one of the most comprehensive Catholic theology sites on the internet.

[quote]Why do you call Raphael holy, you mean that he is very religious? I'm more a Michel Angelo fan (hahahahah), just poking too ;-)![/quote]

He calls me holy because he's crazy enough to think that I am close to God somehow.

I don't really know why he thinks that.

[quote]What does cam42 mean?[/quote]

Cam is his name...I don't know where the "42" comes from.

[quote]Do you know if there are other europeans visiting this site often?[/quote]

We have a few, yes. We are mostly from the United States and Canada, though.

[quote]I wonder why catholics whoreship people like a pope and figures like the mother Mary while God told us (through Mozes) in the ten commandments not to worship others then God himself?

Can you please explain how the chatolic religion justify's that?[/quote]

Catholics do not do these things. These are common misunderstandings, and I encourage you to start a new topic on that issue.

[a girl called Ezra]

Latin? Will "Mea Culpa" (?) work in this case? Nope sorry can't do it in Latin or Greek that good and quick. Hebrew will that do? :-) !

Why did you choose the nick Raphael?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='a girl called Ezra' date='Apr 17 2005, 09:49 PM'] Latin? Will "Mea Culpa" (?) work in this case? Nope sorry can't do it in Latin or Greek that good and quick. Hebrew will that do? :-) !

Why did you choose the nick Raphael? [/quote]
Ita vero, Latina lingua mea est.

I am Raphael after St. Raphael the Archangel, my Confirmation and patron saint.

[a girl called Ezra]

Thank you for all the answers!

Concerning the last quote > well let i put it differently. The pope sometimes declares people saint(s) after he/she preformed a miracle for 2 times or more and after their dead for 5 years, .......i'm i close? How can a mortal human being declare a person to be a saint? And why do they call him the replacement of Jezus on earth (they did on tv)?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='a girl called Ezra' date='Apr 17 2005, 09:58 PM'] Thank you for all the answers!

Concerning the last quote > well let i put it differently. The pope sometimes declares people saint(s) after he/she preformed a miracle for 2 times or more and after their dead for 5 years, .......i'm i close? How can a mortal human being declare a person to be a saint? And why do they call him the replacement of Jezus on earth (they did on tv)? [/quote]
Well, really, please start another topic. This topic is about something different and we don't like to confuse people.

The short answer is that the pope doesn't make a person a saint. What happens is that after a big investigation, it is determined by certain miracles that a person must be in heaven, so we declare that they are saints. We don't put them in heaven, but they are already in heaven and the pope declares it. Does that clear it up a bit?

Really, we're happy to answer questions, but please make a new topic so we don't have confusion.

[a girl called Ezra]

Okay i will, sorry was not my intension to cause problems. What is the exact topic of this window? I've asked before what the specific thread of this window was but did not get a clear answer, that why i wandered off to other things.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='a girl called Ezra' date='Apr 17 2005, 10:17 PM'] Okay i will, sorry was not my intension to cause problems. What is the exact topic of this window? I've asked before what the specific thread of this window was but did not get a clear answer, that why i wandered off to other things. [/quote]
Cam made it for you.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 17 2005, 03:00 PM'] If it's so clear, then tell us what it is and document it. You have yet to do so. I want to abide by the Church's teachings, but I think there is some bias being brought in here.

I love chant...I want an excuse to agree, don't think I'm trying not to. [/quote]
Raph....

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20031204_sacra-liturgia_en.html"]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/url] is a great place to start....support it with the [url="http://www.vci.net/~inmanmj/library/girm2000.htm"]GIRM[/url].

I would also suggest reading [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html"]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/url].

There ya go.....

Cam

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 17 2005, 10:39 PM'] Raph....

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20031204_sacra-liturgia_en.html"]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/url] is a great place to start....support it with the [url="http://www.vci.net/~inmanmj/library/girm2000.htm"]GIRM[/url].

I would also suggest reading [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html"]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/url].

There ya go.....

Cam [/quote]
Well, I do plan on reading those anyway, but for now, I was looking for some immediate line on where the Church stood. I think we found it.

[argent_paladin]

Last night I only had time to do a quick quote dump. Today, I will try to put together my own view of what the Church teaches about the role of Gregorian chant in the liturgy. Note, this is not my own personal preference, but is taken from Church documents.

First, an extract from the quote dump:
3. These qualities are to be found, in the highest degree, in Gregorian Chant, which is, consequently the Chant proper to the Roman Church, the only chant she has inherited from the ancient fathers, which she has jealously guarded for centuries in her liturgical codices, which she directly proposes to the faithful as her own, which she prescribes exclusively for some parts of the liturgy, and which the most recent studies have so happily restored to their integrity and purity.

On these grounds Gregorian Chant has always been regarded as the supreme model for sacred music, so that it is fully legitimate to lay down the following rule: the more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savor the Gregorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.

and

114. The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. Choirs must be diligently promoted, especially in cathedral churches; but bishops and other pastors of souls must be at pains to ensure that, whenever the sacred action is to be celebrated with song, the whole body of the faithful may be able to contribute that active participation which is rightly theirs, as laid down in Art. 28 and 30.

I highlight these because they are the most direct commands to the faithful concerning chant. The first teaches us the historical and liturgical importance of GC. It is "prescribed exclusively" for some parts of the liturgy. It has "always" been regarded as supreme. And the rule speaks for itself. The more music is like GC the more sacred it is.
The second quote is very clear. "The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered". This is the Second Vatican Council ordering us to foster Gregorian Chant. And they don't mean simply in museums and universities but in all liturgies. It orders priests to make sure that the congregations can participate in GC.

Basicially, the Church

1. Praises Gregorian Chant as the most sacred and most suitable form of music for the Latin rite,
2. Orders those in charge to foster and preserve it
3. Asks those in charge to teach chant to the faithful so that they can participate
4. Encourages the composition of new chants.



There is no "line" and it is not the laity that is making these decisions. We are simply following Catholic teaching. However, parishoners cannot be blamed for not learning chant because most do not have the opportunity to learn.

At the very minimum, we need to reintroduce the chanted mass parts in English. Many parishes already have this. The Kyrie can easily be learned in chant. Basically, all of the chant contained in the Adoremus Hymnal can be learned in a matter of weeks. After that, it only need be used once a month so that the faithful are capable of chanting. I can tell you that it comes in handy at World Youth Day.

[Cam42]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Apr 18 2005, 03:20 AM'] Last night I only had time to do a quick quote dump. Today, I will try to put together my own view of what the Church teaches about the role of Gregorian chant in the liturgy. Note, this is not my own personal preference, but is taken from Church documents.

First, an extract from the quote dump:
3. These qualities are to be found, in the highest degree, in Gregorian Chant, which is, consequently the Chant proper to the Roman Church, the only chant she has inherited from the ancient fathers, which she has jealously guarded for centuries in her liturgical codices, which she directly proposes to the faithful as her own, which she prescribes exclusively for some parts of the liturgy, and which the most recent studies have so happily restored to their integrity and purity.

On these grounds Gregorian Chant has always been regarded as the supreme model for sacred music, so that it is fully legitimate to lay down the following rule: the more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savor the Gregorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.

and

114. The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. Choirs must be diligently promoted, especially in cathedral churches; but bishops and other pastors of souls must be at pains to ensure that, whenever the sacred action is to be celebrated with song, the whole body of the faithful may be able to contribute that active participation which is rightly theirs, as laid down in Art. 28 and 30.

I highlight these because they are the most direct commands to the faithful concerning chant. The first teaches us the historical and liturgical importance of GC. It is "prescribed exclusively" for some parts of the liturgy. It has "always" been regarded as supreme. And the rule speaks for itself. The more music is like GC the more sacred it is.
The second quote is very clear. "The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered". This is the Second Vatican Council ordering us to foster Gregorian Chant. And they don't mean simply in museums and universities but in all liturgies. It orders priests to make sure that the congregations can participate in GC.

Basicially, the Church

1. Praises Gregorian Chant as the most sacred and most suitable form of music for the Latin rite,
2. Orders those in charge to foster and preserve it
3. Asks those in charge to teach chant to the faithful so that they can participate
4. Encourages the composition of new chants.



There is no "line" and it is not the laity that is making these decisions. We are simply following Catholic teaching. However, parishoners cannot be blamed for not learning chant because most do not have the opportunity to learn.

At the very minimum, we need to reintroduce the chanted mass parts in English. Many parishes already have this. The Kyrie can easily be learned in chant. Basically, all of the chant contained in the Adoremus Hymnal can be learned in a matter of weeks. After that, it only need be used once a month so that the faithful are capable of chanting. I can tell you that it comes in handy at World Youth Day. [/quote]
Well said argent....

However, why only once a month? Why should we settle when it comes to the Liturgy? I understand that it takes time to learn the stuff, but if it can be learned in weeks.....

And why not use it for every High Mass? Incidentally, most parishes today don't have High Masses, precisely because the Masses are not sung. It is that which defines the High Mass. Why would we not use GC during every High Mass? Which means why wouldn't we use Gregorian Chant at least once a week?

Seriously, I think that this should be the standard, I make this assertion based upon:
[quote]3. These qualities are to be found, in the highest degree, in Gregorian Chant, which is, consequently the Chant proper to the Roman Church, the only chant she has inherited from the ancient fathers, which she has jealously guarded for centuries in her liturgical codices, which she directly proposes to the faithful as her own, which she prescribes exclusively for some parts of the liturgy, and which the most recent studies have so happily restored to their integrity and purity.

On these grounds Gregorian Chant has always been regarded as the supreme model for sacred music, so that it is fully legitimate to lay down the following rule: the more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savor the Gregorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.

and

114. The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. Choirs must be diligently promoted, especially in cathedral churches; but bishops and other pastors of souls must be at pains to ensure that, whenever the sacred action is to be celebrated with song, the whole body of the faithful may be able to contribute that active participation which is rightly theirs, as laid down in Art. 28 and 30.[/quote]

I don't think that we should settle. Once we agree with that, what would stop the average parish from using Latin for those High Masses? I am not saying that every Mass should be in Latin, but why not make each High Mass on Sunday (and whenever deemed a need for a High Mass) in Latin and use Gregorian Chant?

Cam

[journeyman]

For those who might wonder what the booklet that was a gift to the Bishops, priests and music ministers might have said/looked like . . .
[url="http://www.ceciliaschola.org/notes/jubilatedeo.html"]Jubilate Deo[/url]