Do we have enough reason to believe in God?

[infinitelord1]

melchisedec,


there is a book that gives an explanation to who we are and where we came from. There is no book that explains that we always existed or there is no creator. So, technically, we have more reason to believe that there is a god than you do that there is no god, or to believe that we just dont know.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 15 2005, 06:14 PM'] there is a book that gives an explanation to who we are and where we came from. [/quote]
There are books , a great many of them. They have as much right to claim their book, as you do yours. Just because its a book with an explanation doesn't make it true.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 15 2005, 06:34 PM'] Btw, there is a show tonite about creationism on Infidelguy. You can stream it for free. 8pm EST, link below. [/quote]
I saw a scholarship for infidelguy...I don't get atheists...it's so goofy and completely overlooks the evidence, miracles, and other things.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 15 2005, 06:29 PM'] Gods born of other gods, gods that die. There are many gods who have characterisitic that defy your standards. These gods fit under the accepted definition of god. [/quote]
1. These gods were based on human or animal characteristics. We preach a God who is without sin or evil.

2. These gods are no longer accepted and by the current meaning of the term God (which I presumed we were using), God is infinite, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. But perhaps it would be better to come up with our own term so that we can have a common understanding of what we mean be "God" in this debate. How's "Yahweh"? I think that "I Am Who Am," which reveals a single God wo is the source and summit of existence, is perhaps the best way, especially considering that we are debating His existence.

[Melchisedec]

[quote]God is infinite, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, etc.  But perhaps it would be better to come up with our own term so that we can have a common understanding of what we mean be "God" in this debate. [/quote]



God:
[i]
A being conceived of as possessing supernatural power, and to be propitiated by sacrifice, worship, etc.; a divinity; a deity; an object of worship; an idol
[/i]

I'm not making a definition up just to suit my needs.
[url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&oi=defmore&q=define:god"]Google definitions[/url]

Now you don't believe in Hindu gods simply because they can take forms of animals? They may not meet your distinct definition of god, but that doesn't remove the fact that they are within the confines of the definition.

[quote]
How's "Yahweh"?  I[/quote]

You are not familiar with the name of the old testament god?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 15 2005, 08:42 PM'] God:
[i]A being conceived of as possessing supernatural power, and to be propitiated by sacrifice, worship, etc.; a divinity; a deity; an object of worship; an idol[/i]

I'm not making a definition up just to suit my needs.
[url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&oi=defmore&q=define:god"]Google definitions[/url]

Now you don't believe in Hindu gods simply because they can take forms of animals? They may not meet your distinct definition of god, but that doesn't remove the fact that they are within the confines of the definition. [/quote]
This is a Catholic website and we're talking about the Catholic God, not pagan deities, idols, demigods, pseudogods, or anything else. We are talking about God, not a god.

We agree with you that pagan gods don't exist. It's obvious that they have nothing to do with the debate.

[quote]You are not familiar with the name of the old testament god?[/quote]

I'm very familiar with Him and His Holy Name. My point was to find a definition for the Catholic ideal of God...I think Yahweh is the simplest, upon which all other aspects of God can be based.

[Melchisedec]

Since we have agree upon to discuss your god. I ask, why is there reason to believe in Yahweh?

[infinitelord1]

as human beings we have a concept of right and wrong.

My question to you melchisedec.........where did this come from? Did a couple of people sit down one day and say that we are going to designate things into two categories, and the names of these categories will be "right" and "wrong"? Or would it make more sense to believe that a god set the standard of right and wrong by communicating with his people. If this to you is more thesible then dont you think yahweh would be the only god that stands for "truth" or maybe a better way to say this "god of truth"(what is right). If you can name another god that is a god of truth then i would like to know.

[infinitelord1]

Now I think that you see yahweh no differently than any of the other gods that man has worshipped throughout history. (this is the attitude that i am picking up from you). Going back to the yahweh being "God of truth" concept.....lets say that yahweh was one of many gods.......since he is the god of truth he doesnt tell any lies, right?......in the bible yahweh reveals himself as the only god and we shouldnt worship any other gods besides him. Since Yahweh is the god of truth this must be the truth. The only flaw that i see in this explanation would be proving the validity of the bible. That I personally cant do. I can proove that there was a man named jesus....since the bible is not the only source that says that, but i cant proove that he did miracles......isnt a miracle something that cannot be explained though? So really it is pointless to question whether or not these were miracles since it will never be proven, and even if you were there to see it......I think you would still doubt what you saw. Jesus even said it himself that nothing will ever prove gods existence.......no matter what people will always expect more proof. I think that the more you learn and the more things make sense to you......the harder it is to deny that there is a god.....since it makes so much logical sense and it never contradicts itself. I think you as an atheist........if you were to give the belief in god a chance, and learn more.........i think your doubts would slowly start to grow into faith.

[Melchisedec]

[quote]as human beings we have a concept of right and wrong.

My question to you melchisedec.........where did this come from? Did a couple of people sit down one day and say that we are going to designate things into two categories, and the names of these categories will be "right" and "wrong"?[/quote]

This has been a debate since socrates and the other great philosophers. If you believe that god sets the standards on whats right and wrong than I ask you. Lets say you and a baby are in a room. You kill the baby, was that wrong? I would say yes it was. Now lets say god asked you to kill that baby. Now the act is no longer wrong. God can make morals arbitrary. I think the human mind can abstract whats right and wrong. But I do understand that many people feel that god must exist to define morals or everything it reduced to relativism. Its an interesting debate.


[quote] Or would it make more sense to believe that a god set the standard of right and wrong by communicating with his people. If this to you is more thesible then dont you think yahweh would be the only god that stands for "truth" or maybe a better way to say this "god of truth"(what is right). If you can name another god that is a god of truth then i would like to know.[/quote]

Allah, Krishna, Zeus.

[Melchisedec]

[quote]Now I think that you see yahweh no differently than any of the other gods that man has worshipped throughout history. (this is the attitude that i am picking up from you). Going back to the yahweh being "God of truth" concept.....lets say that yahweh was one of many gods.......since he is the god of truth he doesnt tell any lies, right?[/quote]

Why because he says so?

[quote]......in the bible yahweh reveals himself as the only god and we shouldnt worship any other gods besides him. Since Yahweh is the god of truth this must be the truth.[/quote]

This logic is absurd. Because I tell you I am a fish does that make me a fish. If I tell you, god commands me and you should listen to my ever beckon call. Do you follow me?

[quote] The only flaw that i see in this explanation would be proving the validity of the bible. That I personally cant do. I can proove that there was a man named jesus....since the bible is not the only source that says that, but i cant proove that he did miracles......isnt a miracle something that cannot be explained though? So really it is pointless to question whether or not these were miracles since it will never be proven, and even if you were there to see it......I think you would still doubt what you saw.[/quote]

If a man performed amazing miracles and thousands saw these miracles. I would think there would exist other sources of corroboration to these miracles. And to assume I would doubt a miracle if i saw one is speculative. I would ofcourse question what I saw, but I wouldn't explain it away for the sake of denouncing it. If I saw something that defied natural law and science, I would be compelled to believe it.


[quote] Jesus even said it himself that nothing will ever prove gods existence.......no matter what people will always expect more proof. I think that the more you learn and the more things make sense to you......the harder it is to deny that there is a god.....since it makes so much logical sense and it never contradicts itself. I think you as an atheist........if you were to give the belief in god a chance, and learn more.........i think your doubts would slowly start to grow into faith.[/quote]

I think you fail to realize that I was a christian for most of my life. I had the same faith as everyone. The same feelings of spirit, and so on. The more I learned the more things did not make sense. Hence I am what I am now. If you want to believe in it, there is nothing stopping you. To you it makes alot more logical sense, because you have always presumed a god. Take it out of the equation and your world is upside down. If you want to believe by all means do. But this little Q & A we are having is serving no reason whatsoever. Embrace your faith and move on with your life.

[Jaime]

Interesting stuff.

Melchisidec debates better than any athiest I've met before. Probably because he argues from a different premise than most.

Here's something that I will freely admit. We cannot empirically or scientifically prove without a shadow of doubt that there is a God. To do so, we would have to be able to provide an experiment where we could control an environment then introduce or withdraw the variable (i.e. God). Since we believe God is everywhere, we have no controlled study. There is no controlled environment where God cannot exist.

But its set up that way isn't it? We can look at all the evidence objectively, but the final answer (conversion or not) is ultimately subjective. It is a matter of faith. Its that way by design folks. God could resolve the debate in a heartbeat. But that would infringe upon our free will wouldn't it? So we must muddle along.

There are events that have happened in my life that demonstrate to me without a doubt that there is God. Real, practical, "reach out and touch faith" kind of events. I also know that it is extremely unlikely that anything that I say will transform another individual into becoming a believer. It is in what I do. It is in how I act. It is the example that I strive to set in my own life.

Don't get me wrong. I love to yammer on and on about my faith. But I know its mostly for me.

[infinitelord1]

if you were to tell me that you were a fish that would be a lie.......the "the god of truth" tells no lies.

[infinitelord1]

this debate is pointless because you will never change your beliefs

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 18 2005, 12:28 PM'] if you were to tell me that you were a fish that would be a lie.......the "the god of truth" tells no lies. [/quote]
The 'god of truth' tells no lies because he calls himself the 'god of truth' and declares he tells no lies. You ask a muslim if allah is the god of lies, and I shudder at the response.