Evolution vs Creation

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 18 2005, 01:31 PM'] I have a question for those that want to stick to the exact and verbatim literal acceptance of the creation account in Genesis. When the authors spoke about God streaching out His hand to do this, or that God will take Judah as His commanders staff, do you take those literal as well? There are such things as analogies to express truth. We cannot explain God without an analogy for God is purely spiritual and pure act, so we must say God is like something (like having a hand or taking something as a staff) to express a truth about Him. Is God really a rock? No.

How God created is ultimatley a mystery. Would it be totally mind blowing that the creation account in Genisis, since there were no eye-witnesses, is an analogy to express a truth about God and how He acted to bring the world into exisence rather than a literal word by word account? [/quote]
Has brother adam trolled out on yet another good question and point.

[bookwyrm]

[quote name='mortify' date='Apr 18 2005, 11:43 AM'] bookwyrm

I take the baby out before dumping the water. Genes being passed down and giving rise to different traits is a reality. The difficulty is in accepting a theory which suggests that all "this" arose from billions of beyond-astronomical accidents that just happen to give life to the most intricate systems, such as the human body.

Everyone who cares to learn will marvel at our existence. How delicate our existence is and had not all these pieces come together in certain ways at certain times we would not even be here. The question is, if the difficulties of this theory are apparent why is it so strongly held on to? Why can't it be questioned? Without evolution there is no explanation for our existence, even with massive gaps it must be accepted...otherwise...what is the alternative? And what consequences does that alternative have?

Evolution has a big ground in atheism. It demonstrates the possibility of existence without God. God is not a necessary ingredient, scientists try to factor its reality without the divine included. If a theist accepts the theory, one only needs to ask why he believes God had anything to do with it.

We don't know the how but we have an idea as to the the Why. [/quote]
That's where Intelligent Design comes in. Not that I think it has any place as a scientific theory (which means we still have to patch up all those holes as scientists) but as a personal philosophy it helps sooth my qualms about evolution. BTW there's a big party over on the 'poll about creation' thread if anyone's interested.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 02:12 PM'] That's just evolutionary spin.

You'd make a good politician Infintelord !

No seriously: : let's assume then that you are right up to Gen 2:6 - let's assume that God created everything through the process of death and evolution over billions of years - even up to Gen 2:7a "And the Lord God FORMED man of the dust of the groud" - let's assume you are right and these words "formed man" mean that the soil God created turned into plankton, plankton turned into fish, fish turned into birds, birds turned into apes and apes turned into man in this process of God "forming man" out of the dust of the earth (more or less) such as Darwin said.

Why would God then breath into his nostrils the breath of life? (Gen 2:7b)

Do you interpret 'breath' as not really being 'breath' - or is it something super-spiritual? [/quote]
i believe that the breath of life was a soul.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 02:12 PM'] That's just evolutionary spin.

You'd make a good politician Infintelord !

No seriously: : let's assume then that you are right up to Gen 2:6 - let's assume that God created everything through the process of death and evolution over billions of years - even up to Gen 2:7a "And the Lord God FORMED man of the dust of the groud" - let's assume you are right and these words "formed man" mean that the soil God created turned into plankton, plankton turned into fish, fish turned into birds, birds turned into apes and apes turned into man in this process of God "forming man" out of the dust of the earth (more or less) such as Darwin said.

Why would God then breath into his nostrils the breath of life? (Gen 2:7b)

Do you interpret 'breath' as not really being 'breath' - or is it something super-spiritual? [/quote]
the breathe of life (in my beliefs) is a soul

[infinitelord1]

would somebody please correct me if im wrong.

[cmotherofpirl]

We weren't there so we don't know.

[infinitelord1]

i dont believe evolution goes against creationism at all......i believe they go hand-in-hand. Thats what i think the second creation story does it explains the evolutionary part of mand kind......while the 1st creation story explains it from gods perspective.

[cmotherofpirl]

Genesis tells us why God created the world. Astronomy and Evolution can give us the scientific details.
There are not incompatible and are different aspects of one Truth - God.

[Paphnutius]

Agreed.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 18 2005, 12:43 PM'] We also agree murder is wrong. Big red flag go up for you? [/quote]
No we don't I would seriously doubt that you and I could even arree what murder is.


That being said, I am a science teacher, Evolution is a hot topic in my field, let me say this, anyone who really embraces science is going to tell you evolution ( in the since it is being discussed here) is filled with to many holes to be seriously concidered a viable option. That doesn't mean that evolutionary processes do not occur, but science has not offered really compeling arguements for evolution... there are WAY,too many holes in the fossil record, and I mean way too many.


Now my personal opinion is right around Cmom's so if you want to know what I think just rlook agian at here post but please don't through around Evolutionary theory as if it was a sceintific fact it is not.

[robotman0]

Ok, this is my view on things. I think the two work with each other quite well actually. I am going to use my somewhat basic knowledge of biology that I learned from my neighbor (he teaches biology at a local university). He explained it to me about a year ago so my facts might not be perfect but they will be close.

The cells in the body divide. In order to do this they must copy the DNA so there are now two copies. The cells have an amazing way of copying DNA using RNA that uses molecules that will only bind with certain other molecules in order to make sure each piece of the DNA is perfectly matched to the pieces of the new strand of DNA. This [i]should[/i] make the copying of DNA perfect. However, sometimes the cell messes up when copying the DNA and a piece that doesn't match, manages to force itself into fitting (very rare). This changes the DNA and therefore causes a change in that organism. Then if that new trait happens to be an improvement (very very rare) then it may help that organism to survive better and reproduce more. So evolution actually occurs when the cells screw up and happen to cause an improvement without meaning to.... hence, evolution. Now, the fact that all these things line up is very very very rare. But now to slim the chances of this even more......you must consider this started from bacteria and evolved all the way up to humans.......given it did have millions of years which seems like a long time but in terms of evolution its not very long. The chances of that all falling into place in that short a time just by the randomness of the universe ..........ummmmmm no.

This only could have happened with divine intervention pushing it along and lining things up just right. The Bible speaks of 7 days........but God's sense of time is not the same as our sense of time. A day in God's eyes could be anything........a day......a week......a year.......or even a million years. The Bible says God created all of those things.......but it doesn't say [i]how[/i] He did it. Evolution may have been the method He chose to create things. It fits with how the first things He created were simpler organisms......its speaks of plants. Then more and more complex..........animals and birds.........and finally humans. This follows with how evolution works. I believe the point at which humans came into existence was when God put a soul in us. Which means adam and eve were the first "cave people."

For the record I'm a Catholic and this is my opinion on how things happened. But you have to admit, if you just sit back and look at it, it's pretty amazing. How well the Bible and the science intertwine so perfectly and how everything lined up so perfectly for the evolution to have occured so fast. Clearly God's handiwork.....it fits together too well to be anything else.

I mean science should fit with religion.......after all God created science too.......so next time you pray remember to thank God for making gravity to hold us all down on this planet. Newton may have discovered gravity, but God made it....so there

Edited April 21, 2005 by robotman0

[infinitelord1]

i heard somewhere that the earth was 13 billion years old.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='robotman0' date='Apr 21 2005, 12:51 AM'] Ok, this is my view on things. I think the two work with each other quite well actually. I am going to use my somewhat basic knowledge of biology that I learned from my neighbor (he teaches biology at a local university). He explained it to me about a year ago so my facts might not be perfect but they will be close.

The cells in the body divide. In order to do this they must copy the DNA so there are now two copies. The cells have an amazing way of copying DNA using RNA that uses molecules that will only bind with certain other molecules in order to make sure each piece of the DNA is perfectly matched to the pieces of the new strand of DNA. This [i]should[/i] make the copying of DNA perfect. However, sometimes the cell messes up when copying the DNA and a piece that doesn't match, manages to force itself into fitting (very rare). This changes the DNA and therefore causes a change in that organism. Then if that new trait happens to be an improvement (very very rare) then it may help that organism to survive better and reproduce more. So evolution actually occurs when the cells screw up and happen to cause an improvement without meaning to.... hence, evolution. Now, the fact that all these things line up is very very very rare. But now to slim the chances of this even more......you must consider this started from bacteria and evolved all the way up to humans.......given it did have millions of years which seems like a long time but in terms of evolution its not very long. The chances of that all falling into place in that short a time just by the randomness of the universe ..........ummmmmm no.

This only could have happened with divine intervention pushing it along and lining things up just right. The Bible speaks of 7 days........but God's sense of time is not the same as our sense of time. A day in God's eyes could be anything........a day......a week......a year.......or even a million years. The Bible says God created all of those things.......but it doesn't say [i]how[/i] He did it. Evolution may have been the method He chose to create things. It fits with how the first things He created were simpler organisms......its speaks of plants. Then more and more complex..........animals and birds.........and finally humans. This follows with how evolution works. I believe the point at which humans came into existence was when God put a soul in us. Which means adam and eve were the first "cave people."

For the record I'm a Catholic and this is my opinion on how things happened. But you have to admit, if you just sit back and look at it, it's pretty amazing. How well the Bible and the science intertwine so perfectly and how everything lined up so perfectly for the evolution to have occured so fast. Clearly God's handiwork.....it fits together too well to be anything else.

I mean science should fit with religion.......after all God created science too.......so next time you pray remember to thank God for making gravity to hold us all down on this planet. Newton may have discovered gravity, but God made it....so there [/quote]
I would agree, except for one thing. If you are to believe that God created the Earth in the creationist sense, you must understand a day to be the dawning of the sun to the setting of the sun. Or so would the literal translation seem to state.

Leaving your post (and it was a very good one) aside, ther eshould be stated one thing, evolution is not a matter of apostacy. Claiming someone is apostate for taking up the view on Creation that allows God to have done His work, but does not neccessatate it (although as a Catholic, you are to believe that God did create everything, but the theory itself doesn't require God to have done anything). However, I there is less and less proof for evolution as we go on.

I am interested in anyone who is familiar with Steven Hawkings and his work. He seems to be a die-hard evolutionist and athiest. A link to his work and a good rebuttal would be appreciated.

God bless,
Mikey

[robotman0]

I totally believe God created everything.........I just believe evolution was the way He chose to do it. He could have poofed everything into existance as well.........but it just wouldn't make as much sense. Because God created science (to give us stuff to figure out maybe? i dunno why He gave it to us but He did) it would make sense that if He made science and created the laws of science that some of the things He does would match with science. I'm not saying everthing He does fits science (or our limited understanding of science) since Jesus clearly defied the laws of science and there are miracles that happen in our world today that leave doctors and scientists scratching their heads. But in my opinion the evolution theory fits well.......it just couldn't have happened that fast........and therefore God "created" everything by "speeding up" the laws of science.......by forcing DNA to copy wrong and creating new DNA that would create His next creature........by putting order to what should be randomness of evolution.........and hence He created everything through it.

[Oik]

[quote]Genes being passed down and giving rise to different traits is a reality. The difficulty is in accepting a theory which suggests that all "this" arose from billions of beyond-astronomical accidents that just happen to give life to the most intricate systems, such as the human body.

Everyone who cares to learn will marvel at our existence. How delicate our existence is and had not all these pieces come together in certain ways at certain times we would not even be here. The question is, if the difficulties of this theory are apparent why is it so strongly held on to? Why can't it be questioned? Without evolution there is no explanation for our existence, even with massive gaps it must be accepted...otherwise...what is the alternative? And what consequences does that alternative have?

Evolution has a big ground in atheism. It demonstrates the possibility of existence without God. God is not a necessary ingredient, scientists try to factor its reality without the divine included. If a theist accepts the theory, one only needs to ask why he believes God had anything to do with it.

We don't know the how but we have an idea as to the the Why.[/quote]

I agree here.

Edited April 21, 2005 by Oik