Evolution vs Creation

[Brother Adam]

Welcome to phatmass!

[musturde]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 14 2005, 07:36 AM'] Its good to see the catholic point of view is far more rational than the literalist view. A guided evolution can be plausible. To disregard all evidence as propaganda, is simply a denial. [/quote]
Yeah, usually Catholics believe Evolution is possible since John Paul II said evolution is more than just a theory. I believe in Evolution to a degree. I believe the Creation stories were made back in the time just to show how the Hebrews back then believed the World was and how it was made. If the Creation story was true, wouldn't we also have to believe there are windows in the sky? (I might be getting this old belief wrong, correct me please.) Also, the creation story is pretty similar to the Creation stories of many other religions back then. The creation story is possible, but I highly doubt it. This is just my belief and my reasons.

[Priscilla]

Anyone who believes man descended from apes is APOSTATE.

And not only this, TE's are idolaters: you make an idol of science, and also commit whoredoms by getting into the same spiritual bed with ATHEISTS.

Why?

For this reason: God created everything "very good". TE cannot believe this: thus they are denying the Word of God, and in their stubborness about it, they are also idolaters (stubborness is as the sin of idolatry).

You see, TE's have to try and fit geologic time and fossil record into the creation periods - but regardless of how old they are, the fossils show the same things we have on earth today: famines, disease, disaster, extinction, floods, earthquakes etc.

So if fossils represtnt stages in God's creative activity, why should Christians oppose disease, and famine or even help and preserve endangered species?

Why did the Catholics then send money to help Tsunami victims????

If the fossils were formed during the creation week, then all these things would be "very good".

Not only are TE's apostate, but they are promoting a "doctrine of demons" by persisting in their error because they are committing whoredom by getting into the same spiritual bed as ATHEISTS. Darwin himself said of evolution that the "production of higher animals was caused by the war of nature, from famine and death".

DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A WORLD THAT WAS CREATED "VERY GOOD"?????????????????????????

[Melchisedec]

[quote]Anyone who believes man descended from apes is APOSTATE.

And not only this, TE's are idolaters:  you make an idol of science, and also commit whoredoms by getting into the same spiritual bed with ATHEISTS[/quote]

Is this one of your 'mind-sets'.

[quote]So if fossils represtnt stages in God's creative activity, why should Christians oppose disease, and famine or even help and preserve endangered species?[/quote]

You make no sense here, maybe you should elaborate.

[quote]
Not only are TE's apostate, but they are promoting a "doctrine of demons" by persisting in their error because they are committing whoredom by getting into the same spiritual bed as ATHEISTS.  [/quote]

You are basicly raving because your upset. Unfortunately for you, evidence is not on your side. Denial must be your position in order to keep your worldview intact.

Edited April 17, 2005 by Melchisedec

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 17 2005, 12:33 PM']
Is this one of your 'mind-sets'.

[/quote]
Touche!! No - I just like to rattle their cage a bit.

However, I do believe TE is apostate. Why? Because it denies the Word of God which says God created everything "very good".

[quote]You make no sense here, maybe you should elaborate.
[/quote]
What I mean is this: if Catholics believe in evolution they are basically saying that death, famine, earthquatkes and disease ARE A PART OF GOD'S CREATIVE PROCESS. Yes? They must be saying that - because that's what TE is (believing that God's creation "evolves" through death and disease etc)

So, what I mean is: why then go AGAINST that "creative process" (through death, disease, famine etc) by donating money to try and prevent such disasters, if they are all such a wonderful process of God's "evolutionary" plan?

Is that more clear? It's difficult to explain, but I'll try again if I'm still not making sense.

[quote]You are basicly raving because your upset.  Unfortunately for you, evidence is not on your side.  Ignorance must be your position in order to keep your worldview intact.[/quote]

Sorry if it comes across like that! Actually I couldn't really care less what the Catholics believe about it (though that wouldn't be true if I was one) - they can believe men came from Mars for all I care. (Actually I DO care - I would prefer it if they were Creationists, but since I am not a Catholic, it's of little consequence to me - though who knows? I might be one, one day).

I'm just being provocative - also a bit naughty because most Catholics see the prots as apostate: I just thought I'd rattle their cage and make a point that apostacy can be much nearer home that they think!!

Edited April 17, 2005 by Priscilla

[bookwyrm]

To mortify: I totally agree that the intricacy and complexity of all organisms seems to defy evolution. However, while evolution is a theory wtih many holes, there's no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Pointing out what's wrong with evolution doesn't give any more credence to creationism, in my opinion. I'm not denying the role of God in creation - but religion tells us the Why, and science tells us only the How. I don't see why the two should ever be in conflict.

[bookwyrm]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 17 2005, 01:45 PM'] What I mean is this: if Catholics believe in evolution they are basically saying that death, famine, earthquatkes and disease ARE A PART OF GOD'S CREATIVE PROCESS. Yes? They must be saying that - because that's what TE is (believing that God's creation "evolves" through death and disease etc)

So, what I mean is: why then go AGAINST that "creative process" (through death, disease, famine etc) by donating money to try and prevent such disasters, if they are all such a wonderful process of God's "evolutionary" plan?
[/quote]
Death and disease were brought into the world by sin. Also because of our sin, Jesus Christ came to earth and died for us. He gave us the Eucharist. This is evidence of God's incredible ability to bring good out of all the evil we bring upon ourselves.

[bookwyrm]

OH NO!!!! I KILLED THE THREAD!!!!!!

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='bookwyrm' date='Apr 17 2005, 03:13 PM'] To mortify: I totally agree that the intricacy and complexity of all organisms seems to defy evolution. However, while evolution is a theory wtih many holes, there's no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Pointing out what's wrong with evolution doesn't give any more credence to creationism, in my opinion. I'm not denying the role of God in creation - but religion tells us the Why, and science tells us only the How. I don't see why the two should ever be in conflict. [/quote]
Well said.

[mortify]

bookwyrm

I take the baby out before dumping the water. Genes being passed down and giving rise to different traits is a reality. The difficulty is in accepting a theory which suggests that all "this" arose from billions of beyond-astronomical accidents that just happen to give life to the most intricate systems, such as the human body.

Everyone who cares to learn will marvel at our existence. How delicate our existence is and had not all these pieces come together in certain ways at certain times we would not even be here. The question is, if the difficulties of this theory are apparent why is it so strongly held on to? Why can't it be questioned? Without evolution there is no explanation for our existence, even with massive gaps it must be accepted...otherwise...what is the alternative? And what consequences does that alternative have?

Evolution has a big ground in atheism. It demonstrates the possibility of existence without God. God is not a necessary ingredient, scientists try to factor its reality without the divine included. If a theist accepts the theory, one only needs to ask why he believes God had anything to do with it.

We don't know the how but we have an idea as to the the Why.

[Brother Adam]

"Evolution has a big ground in atheism."

Is it any wonder that athiests encourage and commend Catholics for accepting evolution? When athiests and Catholics walk together hand in hand on the origins of life, that sends up a big red flag

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 18 2005, 10:50 AM'] "Evolution has a big ground in atheism."

Is it any wonder that athiests encourage and commend Catholics for accepting evolution? When athiests and Catholics walk together hand in hand on the origins of life, that sends up a big red flag [/quote]
We also agree murder is wrong. Big red flag go up for you?

[Nicole8223]

I believe that if evolution did occur, then at the moment man came into existence, God infused him with a soul and free will. What's so atheistic about that?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Apr 18 2005, 12:47 PM'] I believe that if evolution did occur, then at the moment man came into existence, God infused him with a soul and free will. What's so atheistic about that? [/quote]
Exactly. It only interferes if you believe in the literal account of genesis. If you don't. Than evolution implies nothing about a gods existence or non existence.

[Paphnutius]

I have a question for those that want to stick to the exact and verbatim literal acceptance of the creation account in Genesis. When the authors spoke about God streaching out His hand to do this, or that God will take Judah as His commanders staff, do you take those literal as well? There are such things as analogies to express truth. We cannot explain God without an analogy for God is purely spiritual and pure act, so we must say God is like something (like having a hand or taking something as a staff) to express a truth about Him. Is God really a rock? No.

How God created is ultimatley a mystery. Would it be totally mind blowing that the creation account in Genisis, since there were no eye-witnesses, is an analogy to express a truth about God and how He acted to bring the world into exisence rather than a literal word by word account?