Evolution vs Creation

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 13 2005, 09:56 PM']
Wrong. We have observed evolution in the wild. Url included.

[url="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/26/MN172778.DTL"]Evolution of Songbirds and salamanders[/url]

More Info here:
[url="http://www.talkorigins.org"]TalkOrigins[/url]



So are you basicly saying to discard evidence simply out of your fear of atheism. I'm not suprised.



Creationism is a stance against evolution out of fear. There is not one shred of evidence to support creationism. Its not even a scientific theory. Its simply an assertion. One that says 'god did it'. If you know a creationist who can convert athiest into christians through their overwhelming evidence for creationism. Infidelguy radio show would love to debate them. Imagine all the souls you could save. [/quote]
I don't fear athiesm. Athiesm is a position of the fear of the unknown. Faith scares you because you can't understand it. All you are capable of believing in is what is in front of your nose. The idea that creationism is spawned out of evolution is debunkable by a lesson in history a second grader could do.

And that URL is a lame excuse for evidence in macro-evolution.

Here is some basic exploration for your study on both sides of the issue:

[url="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=36&DaysPrune=1000&submit=Go"]http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultima...=1000&submit=Go[/url]

[Melchisedec]

[quote]I don't fear athiesm. Athiesm is a position of the fear of the unknown. Faith scares you because you can't understand it.
[/quote]

How so?

[quote]
All you are capable of believing in is what is in front of your nose[/quote]

Ridiculous statement.

[quote]. The idea that creationism is spawned out of evolution is debunkable by a lesson in history a second grader could do[/quote]

I await your lesson maestro.

[quote]
And that URL is a lame excuse for evidence in macro-evolution. [/quote]

Your ignorance is aparent. You deny evidence simply because you choose to.

[quote]Here is some basic exploration for your study on both sides of the issue:
[url="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=36&DaysPrune=1000&submit=Go"]http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultima...=1000&submit=Go[/url]
[/quote]

I will check this out and comment further after I have looked it over.

[Priscilla]

All very interesting. Thanks you for all your comments everyone.

I agree with Brother Adam.

Just a few other comments: since I am a keen aquarist, I observe natural selection in my fish tanks all the time: but natural selection is different to evolution. My fish could naturally select for a zillion, willion years, and they'd still end up fish. There's no way a fish can turn into anything except a fish. But they will be strong healthy fish, because the strong healthy fish get to survive over the weak puny fish.

If you believe in evolution you have to believe that death came first before sin into the world. Evolution believes in death as a process: not as a punishment.
Creationists discern that death is a punishment for sin.

When God cursed the ground because of Adam's sin, this also affected the animal kingdom - they animals were made from the dust of the ground and they too now suffer - which is why the whole of creation groans and longs for the sons of God to be revealed (Romans).

[philothea]

I'm curious.

How do those of you who are creationists explain fossil history?

[cmotherofpirl]

First I think everyone needs to define their working definition of creationism and evolution or a better explanation of what they beleive etc.

Me:
God created everything. The fossil records say it took millions and billions then fine, because scienctific truth and God's truth are one and the same. Genesis never claims to be a scientific account of the beginnings. So God took his time and did it right. Do some species change? Of course. Do they do everything the evolutionists claim. Probably not without help. Only God could invent a platypus.

At some point God added human souls to the mix: whether He started a new species or altered one already here that doesn't matter either. We are here.
This is where our faith history starts in Genesis. This part matters
So the teaching stories in Genesis down to Abraham tell us our faith history. Abraham down the line tells us our family history.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 14 2005, 07:26 AM'] First I think everyone needs to define their working definition of creationism and evolution or a better explanation of what they beleive etc.

Me:
God created everything. The fossil records say it took millions and billions then fine, because scienctific truth and God's truth are one and the same. Genesis never claims to be a scientific account of the beginnings. So God took his time and did it right. Do some species change? Of course. Do they do everything the evolutionists claim. Probably not without help. Only God could invent a platypus.

At some point God added human souls to the mix: whether He started a new species or altered one already here that doesn't matter either. We are here.
This is where our faith history starts in Genesis. This part matters
So the teaching stories in Genesis down to Abraham tell us our faith history. Abraham down the line tells us our family history. [/quote]
Its good to see the catholic point of view is far more rational than the literalist view. A guided evolution can be plausible. To disregard all evidence as propaganda, is simply a denial.

[philothea]

FWIW, I belive the same as you, cmotherofpirl. (Not that my opinion matters!) I don't know what exactly to call this belief. It's not Darwinism, and it's not Creationism. Guided evolution?

[cmotherofpirl]

To me its reality.
God is in charge, and His ways are wonderful and far more interesting than anything we can think up.

God is a God of logic and truth and beauty.
Catholicism is a very logical religion.

Edited April 14, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[Priscilla]

[quote name='philothea' date='Apr 14 2005, 05:30 AM'] I'm curious.

How do those of you who are creationists explain fossil history? [/quote]
I think there are two explanations (and I am happy with either):

1) There is no time specified between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. There could be millions of years in between those two verses (there could even have been a pre-Adamic race: who knows?) - whatever, the earth was without form and void.

2) The flood was so cataclysmic that it has aged the earth: I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that the earth is only 6000 years old, but it seems as if its 6 billion years old. That's just how God works sometimes!!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 09:54 AM']
2) The flood was so cataclysmic that it has aged the earth: I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that the earth is only 6000 years old, but it seems as if its 6 billion years old. That's just how God works sometimes!! [/quote]
Your second statement is illogical. We have human artifacts and bones older than 6000 years. God does not play games and just throw logic and reason out the window just to play mind games and confuse us.
He is logic and reason, not silliness and contradiction.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 07:54 AM'] 2) The flood was so cataclysmic that it has aged the earth: I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that the earth is only 6000 years old, but it seems as if its 6 billion years old. That's just how God works sometimes!! [/quote]
There is no evidence for a flood that covered the earth. In fact there is overwhelming evidence against it. The current theories for those who still hold to the flood myth is that , [i]as the Ice Age ended and glaciers melted, a wall of seawater surged from the Mediterranean into the Black Sea.[/i] The study of this theory was chronicled by National Geographic.

[url="http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/ax/frame.html"]Black Sea Expedition[/url]

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 14 2005, 08:28 AM'] There is no evidence for a flood that covered the earth. In fact there is overwhelming evidence against it. The current theories for those who still hold to the flood myth is that , [i]as the Ice Age ended and glaciers melted, a wall of seawater surged from the Mediterranean into the Black Sea.[/i] The study of this theory was chronicled by National Geographic.

[url="http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/ax/frame.html"]Black Sea Expedition[/url] [/quote]
Well they can blind me with all the science they like and I'll still believe there was a flood. I believe the Bible means what it says, and says what it means. Period.

Not that Scripture does not use figures of speech or metaphores or allegories: but in the case of the flood, I believe it was literal.

But it's no big issue: I'm sure God won't condemn anyone to eternal torment if they believe either way.

[Priscilla]

I must say cmotherofpirl I like your signatures - but the one from Pope John Paul II in 1987 is very relevant to this thread is it not? I think it's a very good quote and there's a lot of truth in it.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 10:55 AM'] Well they can blind me with all the science they like and I'll still believe there was a flood. I believe the Bible means what it says, and says what it means. Period.

Not that Scripture does not use figures of speech or metaphores or allegories: but in the case of the flood, I believe it was literal.

But it's no big issue: I'm sure God won't condemn anyone to eternal torment if they believe either way. [/quote]
The sacred writers were reporting on the world that they knew. So any flood that covered their world to them would be a global flood.
Who is to say that a flood happened to all parts of the world at the same time?

[infinitelord1]

I dont see any problems with evolution....i am no bible scholar.....but i think there are holes in the creation story that leave room for evolution......for instance......after the 6th day god rested. Since time is not a factor for god it may have been billions of years before he came back and made his final touches (the 7th day). Not to mention the second creation story in the bible which says god formed man from clay. I think that is reference to evolution. The fact is we have too much scientific evidence that says there was evolution (or that the earth is billions of years old).