What does it take to believe in jesus christ?

[infinitelord1]

I have problems believing in god let alone believing in jesus christ. Its like i want to reject god but there is something deep down inside of me that says otherwise. What did it take for you people to say "I believe in God". What did it take for you people to say,"I believe in Jesus Christ". Did it make logical sense to you? Did God come and personallly greet you? What was it?

[infinitelord1]

Did you just wake up one day and make that choice that you were going to believe in god from now on?

[track2004]

I think the whole believing in God thing for me pretty much went about how you were saying. I couldn't deny it. I tried, but it never quite worked. I always have this little voice that says, "No kid, God is real and you know it," and the little voice is always right.

The Jesus thing took more effort. I was rasied Catholic, but there came a point in my life where I had to sit down and wonder if this was all just a load of bull hockey. I basically had to go off the fact that there was someone named Jesus from Nazareth about 2000 years ago. People wrote some really interesting stories about Him. I read them. I looked at my friends who knew in their hearts that He is Christ. And I sat back and contemplated what this claim that He is Christ meant for me.

I obviously went along with the stories and my friends because in them I met Him. Its hard to explain but I know He is Christ because I saw Him in the faces of people who love me.

I've got to go to class. I'll try to say some more later.

[Guest Eremite]

I've always believed in God. It's just something that is self-evident to me. My problem was not believing in him, but following him....

[jasJis]

Personally, I decided to remain open to the possibility of God when I was in my 20's. This is after 12 years of Catholic school and I was very anti-religious. There is a disconnect between head and soul.
I started with the idea that Good and Evil [u]may[/u] be real forces on a spiritual level, opened my mind to evidence of either, and it grew from there, based on life experiences. Eventually you KNOW, but it is a long journey.
I believe we find what we look for. The hard work is to remain open to anything without being closed to something else. Catholicism (when really understood) teaches that Spiritual Truths eminate from the Creator himself and humanity recognizes that as one of our innate abilities. That's why Pagans, Hindu's, and Messianic Jews, Muslims and Christians can agree on some things if they are honest and knowledgeable. Religion is a human tool that serves to communicate and teach Divine Truth. We need religion because we're human, and God chooses to communicate much through religion. An honest understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches shows us the Church itself tells us to follow our conscience when we KNOW for sure, but when in doubt, trust that God speaks to us through religion, and most fully through the Church. They work together, Church and Conscience, it's not an either/or thing.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Apr 13 2005, 01:12 PM'] I've always believed in God. It's just something that is self-evident to me. My problem was not believing in him, but following him.... [/quote]
Not to start an arguement, but for me God is not self-evident and I think that Aquinas agrees. (ST 1.2.1) For it me it always comes down to when I find myself doubting thing to pray for the theological virtue of faith. That is a virtue that is given, along with hope and love.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 13 2005, 12:51 PM'] I have problems believing in god let alone believing in jesus christ. Its like i want to reject god but there is something deep down inside of me that says otherwise. What did it take for you people to say "I believe in God". What did it take for you people to say,"I believe in Jesus Christ". Did it make logical sense to you? Did God come and personallly greet you? What was it? [/quote]
I can give you an Athiests perspective. My whole life has been dedicated to seeking the light of truth, if you will. God and wanting to be closer to this power was my whole lifes journey. Had it not been for one person whom I fell in love with and married I would most definitely be living a monastic life. A decision out of love has led me to a life I never imagined. Now I am here, an Atheist. One who denounces the very thing I onced swore my whole life to. The thing is - I do not discount a creator. Not at all. I only chose not believe in theistic beliefs because I could not reconcile that my choices in beliefs needed the foundation of faith. We must believe that these men, or whomever you choose to follow, were the ones who only truth revealed itself fully to. We must have faith that these bearers of light, are indeed the messengers of truth. I beseech you to question what you believe, and to be true to thyself, whatever the outcome of that is. I wish you luck.

Edited April 13, 2005 by Melchisedec

[Nicole8223]

I heard that "Once you have a true encounter with Christ, you cannot deny his existence."

So I guess the question is, what is a true encounter with Christ?

I would say the best way is through prayer. In communicating with the divine, you will learn more and more about Him and about yourself.

A good suggestion would be to go to adoration. Kneel before the King of Kings, who has humbled himself to become bread, and pour your heart out to him. Even if you doubt his presence there, do it as if you believed. All grace flows from that Eucharist, and so you will surely encounter Christ.

Sidenote: By encounter, I do not mean a great sign. I don't mean that lightning will strike you or the sky will fall, but just that Christ will enter your heart and grace will be poured upon you. It has nothing to do with feelings or signs, it is about truth penetrating the soul.

[MC Just]

No man can prove that God doesnt Exist. First of all the Catholic church is a Church of great miracles.

Miraculous images, healings, visions, apparations. Some seen by millions. I my self wouldnt be a believer today if it wasnt for the presence of Christ at a local shrine.

I visited the Shrine with a state of mind kinda like Melchisedec's. Seriously I had an experience over my body and spirit that could not be passed off as "mere feelings".

I visited the shrine, all it took was one day and I was totally new. I went from a immoral wanna be gangster thug who was starting to believe himself as God to, a newborn Catholic. My mind, my heart, everything i liked before was thrown into the trash. I could not control what was going on, I was being pulled into a new direction.

I fell on my knees at the shrine, started to cry and was never the same. Oh I believe and there is no way that I cannot believe. I was called by name by Christ himself that day. a year later I was baptized, confirmed and recieved the Holy Eucharist.

I know what it's like not to believe and to me that was torture. Now, I have never been so happy in my life, even when i'm suffering.

Throw as much scientific stuff as you want at us, that worldy wisdom can never prove wrong our Lord. Just because you don't believe God exists, its doesnt mean your disbelief is proof. Your disbelief doesnt make it true.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Not to start an arguement, but for me God is not self-evident and I think that Aquinas agrees. (ST 1.2.1) For it me it always comes down to when I find myself doubting thing to pray for the theological virtue of faith. That is a virtue that is given, along with hope and love.[/quote]

I disagree. The existence and fundamental nature of God is known by reason alone (see Romans 1). The triune nature of God, however, is purely a matter of revelation, not reason.

Not to start an argument, of course.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 13 2005, 01:53 PM'] Did you just wake up one day and make that choice that you were going to believe in god from now on? [/quote]
Strangely enough, it is thus. Sort of, I woke up one day and felt a calling to the priesthod. I had just been looking into Catholicism (my religion) in a more serious way. I still didn't care, but I woke up one morning and felt the calling and have had to change (and still am changing) my life according to that calling. But yes, I just woke up one morning.

God bless,
Mikey

[God Conquers]

Faith and an encounter with the living God.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Apr 13 2005, 03:04 PM']
I disagree. The existence and fundamental nature of God is known by reason alone (see Romans 1). The triune nature of God, however, is purely a matter of revelation, not reason.

Not to start an argument, of course.    [/quote]
But if you do not know God as triune, then you do not know the Christian God, or as God is in Himself. Indeed that is something that is not reachable by reason.

I am not saying that one cannot know that God exists by reason. Of course we can, via five ways. There is a difference though by arguing that somehting is knowable through reason and saying that it is self evident. Something that is self-evident means that once you understand the subject, linking term, and predicate you know that the statement is true. An example would be "A whole is greater than its parts." Once one understands what is meant by whole and parts, the proposition is self-evident. St. Anselm tried to argue the ontological arguement of "Something than which nothing greater can be thought" and thought that this was a self-evident truth about God. Aquinas begs to differ however.

Summa Part One, Question 2, Article One, Corpus

[quote]A thing can be self-evident in either of two ways: on the one hand, self-evident in itself, though not to us; on the other, self-evident in itself, and to us. A proposition is self-evident because the predicate is included in the essence of the subject, as "Man is an animal," for animal is contained in the essence of man. If, therefore the essence of the predicate and subject be known to all, the proposition will be self-evident to all; as is clear with regard to the first principles of demonstration, the terms of which are common things that no one is ignorant of, such as being and non-being, whole and part, and such like. If, however, there are some to whom the essence of the predicate and subject is unknown, the proposition will be self-evident in itself, but not to those who do not know the meaning of the predicate and subject of the proposition. Therefore, it happens, as Boethius says (Hebdom., the title of which is: "Whether all that is, is good"), "that there are some mental concepts self-evident only to the learned, as that incorporeal substances are not in space." Therefore I say that this proposition, "God exists," of itself is self-evident, for the predicate is the same as the subject, because God is His own existence as will be hereafter shown (3, 4). Now because we do not know the essence of God, the proposition is not self-evident to us; but needs to be demonstrated by things that are more known to us, though less known in their nature--namely, by effects.
[/quote]

And in the same Question, his response to Anselm:

[quote]Perhaps not everyone who hears this word "God" understands it to signify something than which nothing greater can be thought, seeing that some have believed God to be a body. Yet, granted that everyone understands that by this word "God" is signified something than which nothing greater can be thought, nevertheless, it does not therefore follow that he understands that what the word signifies exists actually, but only that it exists mentally. Nor can it be argued that it actually exists, unless it be admitted that there actually exists something than which nothing greater can be thought; and this precisely is not admitted by those who hold that God does not exist.
[/quote]

I am not saying that one cannot reason to the existence of God, but saying that it is not self evident. When one understands what someone means by God and what someone means by exists, it does not hold that God's essence demands existence. What one does there is attach the quality of existence to God. One can do this of anything. If I say that "Dragons exist," and then go on to say that what is meant by dragon is something having qualities X, Y, and Z, and something that exists would not make a sound arguement for its existence. This is almost what Anselm attempts to do. To make an arguement that God's existence is self-evident is to go from a coherance truth (the cosmological arguement) and make it into a correspondence truth (God's existence). That is a leap of logic that cannot be taken.

So...

God may be known to exist by reason alone, but that does not mean that God's existence is self-evident for what is in the Christan term for God does not denote existence automatically. Sorry but I think that the ontological arguement failed as proven by Aquinas.

Edited April 14, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Paphnutius]

Where is JeffCR07 on this one? He said he is an Anselmian and could probably add to this disucssion.

Hey I know... I can play that part of Auinas, Jeff can be Anselm, and Eremite you can go learn Augustinian philosophy and play him, then we can have a battle royal!

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 13 2005, 12:51 PM'] I have problems believing in god let alone believing in jesus christ. Its like i want to reject god but there is something deep down inside of me that says otherwise. What did it take for you people to say "I believe in God". What did it take for you people to say,"I believe in Jesus Christ". Did it make logical sense to you? Did God come and personallly greet you? What was it? [/quote]
Grace from God and faith.

It is a gift given to us all, to know and love the One who has created us.
Our job is to search it out and find it.

Faith is the key gift, we must open our hearts Trust in God and His Catholic Church.