Legal Vs. Sacramental Marriage

[Katholikos]

This subject came up elsewhere in a discussion with Adam. I've cut some words from other threads and pasted them here.

Bro Adam on the NFP thread:

According to a Catholic seminarian though, since we are both open to life (don't have any desire or intent to use contraception) and are both baptized Christians we very well could be having a sacramental marriage.

Oh- the person isn't a seminarian. He is in a graduate program at a Catholic college in Ohio.

Bro Adam on Anna's "Who is Catholic . . ." thread:

It would have helped if you explained to me the purpose of going before a priest if I ever had any intention to do become Catholic. Someone else explained it to me, and I have no objection anymore since it wouldn't necessarily mean remarriage- it may only mean a confirmation of sorts.

Likos on Anna's "Who is Catholic. . ." thread:

Do you want the answer to your question about marriage? The answers you are getting from your source appear to be incorrect.

Bro Adam's reply

However, if you would like to answer the question at hand, why you think I'm not being married, I suppose you can.

------

Please, Adam, be fair. You know that I have never said that I "think you're not being married."

I absolutely believe you are being LEGALLY married. But I don't believe, based on what I know now, that you are being SACRAMENTALLY married, as you said your Catholic friend did in the first quote above. But the question is really up to God, isn't it?

It's axiomatic that if you live in Singapore, or France, or Vermont, to legally marry you must comply with the laws of that nation or state. Otherwise, you're not LEGALLY married.

The Catholic Church recognizes the LEGALITY of all civil marriages. If the state of jurisdiction deems your marriage to be legal, so does the Church.

But the Church alone has jurisdiction over the Sacraments. Marriage is more than a legal contract, it is a SACRAMENT. Simply put, a Sacrament is a sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace (grace is God's own Divine Life). The Church alone makes the laws that govern a SACRAMENTAL marriage for Catholics. ("...whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven . . . Mt 16:18-19.)

The Catholic Church makes laws for Catholics . Church law requires Catholics to be married in the presence of a priest or deacon and two witnesses. The bride and groom bestow the Sacrament on each other; the priest (or deacon) acts as a witness of the marriage, on behalf of the Church. If brought to the Church's marriage tribunal for a ruling, the "marriage" of a Catholic attempted in the presence of a judge or minister would be declared null and void -- not as to its legality, but as to its sacramentality. No Catholic may validly marry except in the presence of a priest or deacon.

You were baptized Catholic as a child. You have renounced the Catholic Church and are free to marry as you wish. But if you should ever wish to become a practicing Catholic, the Church would require you to remarry in the presence of a priest or deacon. It is generally referred to as "having your marriage blessed," but it is a repetition of the complete marriage ceremony. It does not affect the LEGALITY of your first marriage; you will not need another marriage license, which is a legal requirement. You will, however, need two witnesses other than the priest or deacon. This is the marriage that the Church will recognize, not the first.

I write this based on the information that is now known to me.

And that is why I told you that you may be required to be remarried in the presence of a priest or deacon if you ever decide to become a practicing Catholic.

Protestants do not believe marriage is a Sacrament -- or an "ordinance." So if you never want to be a practicing Catholic, this will make absolutely no difference to you.

Two (non-Catholic) Christians marrying before a minister bestow the sacrament on each other and are considered sacramentally as well as legally married by the Catholic Church, if there were no impediments. Your case is different: one of the Christians is a baptized Catholic.

Any of our resident theologians can correct me if I'm wrong. I would welcome it.

JMJ Jay (Likos)

Katholikos

Edited July 14, 2003 by Katholikos

[ironmonk]

Likos is absolutly correct.

Even though one is not an active Catholic, the marriage will be invalid in the eyes of Church, which has the authority to bind on earth and in Heaven.

The question comes down to what are your priorities. Making people happy or making God happy. (rhetorical)

Knowing full well before the marriage, that it will not be sacramental is a major issue. If and when you decide to get off the fence, you will not be able to partake the Eucharist until the marriage is convalidated. If you found out after you were married, then the intention thinking it was Sacramental would make it more of a gray area, and you could take the Eucharist.

As a baptized Catholic, you are a Catholic citizen. The Catholic Church has authority to say that your marriage is invalid.

Yes, you can get it convalidated after the fact, but what you are about to do should not be taken lightly. It would be like planning to sin, then saying to yourself "Oh, I'll just go to confession and it'll be ok". I'm not saying exactly to the same gravity, but to take this lightly is a major issue.

I'm in a situation that I had a civil marriage, I did not know it was not a sacrament, because of ignorance and my intention, I am able to partake in the Eucharist. But now, it is an issue trying to get my marriage convalidated, because the wife is being difficult. Both parties must want the convaildation for it to be valid.

Which, I will be single again if the convalidation does not happen. God is more important than anything. Since my marriage is a civil marriage, the Holy Spirit was not involved, I would be free to have a real marriage, after an annulment.

The only Church that has been around for 2000 years is the Catholic Church. It's been proven throughout history. The trail of blood is a lie, none of the people believed the same things, they were not of one faith. The only One Faith is the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church is not the one true Church, then there is no God, and the bible is not inspired.

If you have any inkling of notion of the Truth, dig deep, and do what you need to do. What this world is all about is making it to Heaven. We do not know when we're going to go... every second does count.

I mean this with concern... and I wish I knew before I got into the mess I'm in... Because God comes first, even if I loose everything.

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

ironmonk

[dUSt]

Historically, who started this whole marriage thing? Was it a legal or religious entity? If it was religious, at what point did marriage become a "legal" issue? Since America is supposedly based on "separation of church and state", why is it that judges are involved in marriage?

These are all questions I've never took the time to figure out...

[Katholikos]

Historically, who started this whole marriage thing? Was it a legal or religious entity? If it was religious, at what point did marriage become a "legal" issue? Since America is supposedly based on "separation of church and state", why is it that judges are involved in marriage?

These are all questions I've never took the time to figure out...

The history of marriage:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09693a.htm

[Anna]

Well, we know that Jesus elevated marriage to the dignity of a Sacrament when He performed His first miracle at the wedding feast of Cana.

[Donna]

Ironmonk, I am so sorry. Is the mother of your child Catholic? Does she understand the sacramental aspect?

Praying for you...

[Donna]

Likos, that is a really clear and precise explanation.

Adam, I pray God's will be done for you (and us all).

[Katholikos]

Likos, that is a really clear and precise explanation.

Thank you, Donna. I appreciate your words.

Adam, I pray God's will be done for you (and us all).

Amen!

[Brother Adam]

Interesting thread. A few things I'm going to have to look into: why after Jesus came and fulfilled the law for our salvation that the Catholic Church feels it much make a whole new set of extremely complicated laws to force Christians to jump through hoops in order to make it to heaven.

I can understand the obligation to moral law, but I'm fuzzy on where Christ tells Peter and Co. to make a new set of laws.

Yes, Teresa and I were both baptized as Catholics as infants (like it was our choice), so the Church can make any judgement it wishes, but I believe God desires us to spend our lives working for Him together.

I am thankful Jesus Christ will be the judge on that last day and not the Catholic Church. He was very clear on what was most important:

Matthew 22

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[1] 38This is the first and greatest commandment.

And if the Catholic Church is right, and I'm never able to come to that conclusion, that the Lord will have mercy on my soul.

God Bless,

Brother Adam

[Brother Adam]

I do apologize if my tone sounds harsh at all. But, you know...its hard not to just leave here and not come back sometimes.

[Jake Huether]

"Well, we know that Jesus elevated marriage to the dignity of a Sacrament when He performed His first miracle at the wedding feast of Cana."

Anna, does the Church teach this. I'm just curious because I thought marriage was always at the highest dignity, Sacrament that is. A Sacrament is an outword sign instituted by Christ to give grace. Marriage was instituted at the creation of man wasn't it? The stipulation for "Sacrament" is that it is instituted by Christ, but does that necessarily mean Christ in carnate? Or could Christ have instituted the Sacrament prior to his birth? Otherwise for several thousands of years, marriage was nothing more than a contract with no grace available through it. I'm interested in learning more.

Thanks!

Bro. you wrote:

"A few things I'm going to have to look into: why after Jesus came and fulfilled the law for our salvation that the Catholic Church feels it much make a whole new set of extremely complicated laws to force Christians to jump through hoops in order to make it to heaven."

Sheesh Bro. If you think these "laws" are hoops, you would have never made it as an Isrealite. 40 YEARS in a desert seems like a pretty big hoop to me. Not to mention ashes and saccloth, Passover, all those strict "laws" about clean foods etc. The Church has never made a "whole new set of...laws". If you read the Bible in parallel with the Catechism, the Catholic Church is the only Church to hold the bar at the same level Christ did. So you see, it isn't that the Church has raised the bar for Christians. It's just that so many other Protestant splinters and schismatic groups have lowerd the bar. It may simply be that you're in shock at the level that Christ actually and Truly set for His desciples. You've been, for so many years, told that it is something else. That's the thing about Protestantism: It is a belief or believes set by man to taylor to men. The Truth is that Christs Church, the Catholic Church, although it was established for man, will never taylor to man. In other words, the whole reason Protestantism exists is for the very reason you are upset! Luther, and the previous schismatis couldn't hang with Christs laws. The Church will NEVER loosen her standars or lower the bar so that man might "enjoy" life more (or whatever it's called). The Truth is for man to follow, not for man to make.

"I can understand the obligation to moral law, but I'm fuzzy on where Christ tells Peter and Co. to make a new set of laws."

He never did! But for nearly 500 years now Protestants have embedded in the heads of their followers that certain laws were less or lighter. The new laws aren't from the Catholic Church. On the contrary it is the Protestant laws that are new. When you revert back to the True laws they may seem new, since Protestatism has had a foothold for half a millenium, but they aren't.

"Yes, Teresa and I were both baptized as Catholics as infants (like it was our choice), so the Church can make any judgement it wishes, but I believe God desires us to spend our lives working for Him together."

And He does! But how can you be working for God outside of his Church? No offense, but if you want to work for the Big Guy, you can't just pick and choose which tasks you want to do for Him. It's either all or none.

"I am thankful Jesus Christ will be the judge on that last day and not the Catholic Church. He was very clear on what was most important:

Matthew 22

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[1] 38This is the first and greatest commandment.

And if the Catholic Church is right, and I'm never able to come to that conclusion, that the Lord will have mercy on my soul."

But Bro. The Catholic Church IS Christ! It is the Body of Christ! If you Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind, then you will do whatever he tells you to do! And what He wished above all is that we would be one in him. One in belief, one in practice, one with HIM. That is why there can only be ONE Church. Because there is only One WAY, One Belief, ONE God with One set of rules and One path to ETERNAL salvation. Christ Jesus will be the Judge on the last day, but He will judge just as his Church, His very own BODY, would judge. "Whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." "Whose sins you retain are retained." The Church is the Body of Christ, and Christ is the Judge. They will not judge differently.

My heart goes out to you Bro. You are searching for the Truth at a very unfortunate time. Well, relatively speaking of course. There is not better time than the present to be learning the Truth. But it is a very hard time for you since you will be getting married. Your marriage is supposed to be a joyous time. But all I can tell you is that it will not be joyous if it is doen quickly and outside the bounds of how Christ intended it. If your heart is convicting you now it is for good cause.

Advice? Talk to a priest. Search your heart and do what the Lord wants. If you fail it isnt the end. If you get married in a protestant Church, or even a simple JP, and later figure out that you want to be Catholic no sweat. God is LOVE. Unless you reject the grace to be forgiven (i.e. sin against the Holy Spirit), then there is always an out.

My prayers are with you, my favorite resident crazy baptist brother in Christ.