The Closed Table

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Apr 12 2005, 09:17 PM']
See, this is your biggest obstacle. Especially this part.



The world cannot revolve around what this or that persons believes, one can only follow Christ or nothing at all. If you must find a church that 'fits' your beliefs, to believe in what you believe in, then you must ask yourself if you are truly following Christ or your own personal wants and needs?

Following Christ means carrying the cross.
Many of Christs teachings were difficult for most to follow. That is why, when Christ made it clear that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, only 12 of the original 72 got up and walked out because



Pax [/quote]
I know QuietFire - you're right.

But my point was that I WILL have communion with others even if they have not reached the same degree of Biblical knowledge as me. Is that more clear?

You must get this in catholicism surely? You will get simple souls who just love the Lord, and you will get other more intellectual types who have a sound knowledge and understanding of Scriptural mysteries and church hiistory - but you would still celebrate Mass with the ignorant Catholic as you would with the knowledgeable Catholic?

My point is that surely the [i]true[/i] principle of fellowship is acceptance of another person who loves the Lord Jesus and is seeking to live a holy life and follow His commands (regardless of the degree of knowledge and understand they have).

It's all very cosy and comforting when a sect believes the same thing (more or less) and that's really great. [b]It's easy to accept someone you agree with[/b]: don't even the 'publicans and sinners' do the same. Surely the true test of fellowship is acceptance at the foot of the cross in bread and wine of brethren and sisters who may not have the same knowledge as you do?

Any way - here's a question: Would you rather break bread with, say, a Prot who is leading a holy life, or with a Catholic who (unbeknown to the Chruch before it all comes out) is committing abusing a child? (I know of several such cases: I'm not judging them, Jesus died for their sins - I'm just stating a fact).

Anyhow - I'm not desperately to go to Mass or anything - as I say, I have problems even walking into a Catholic church because of the idols, but I'm interested in all your views on it.

Interesting post from Raphael too; s ome very good points there Raph!

[Archangel]

[quote]Any way - here's a question: Would you rather break bread with, say, a Prot who is leading a holy life, or with a Catholic who (unbeknown to the Chruch before it all comes out) is committing abusing a child? [/quote]
I would rather receive communion with the Catholic at mass rather than the Protestant at his service.

The bread and wine at a Catholic mass truly become the Body and Blood of Jesus. This does not happen at Protestant services.

Whatever sins Catholics commit in their lives does nothing to diminish the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Apr 13 2005, 05:39 AM']
The bread and wine at a Catholic mass truly become the Body and Blood of Jesus. This does not happen at Protestant services.

[/quote]
This is just your belief and mind-set on it.

How do you know it becomes the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus? Can you taste the flesh, and taste the blood in your mouth?

Blood has a very specific taste, and human flesh would need an awful lot of chewing.

[Brother Adam]

John 6:55

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Apr 13 2005, 05:39 AM'] I would rather receive communion with the Catholic at mass rather than the Protestant at his service.

The bread and wine at a Catholic mass truly become the Body and Blood of Jesus. This does not happen at Protestant services.

Whatever sins Catholics commit in their lives does nothing to diminish the Real Presence in the Eucharist. [/quote]
I've known and know quite a few Catholics who aren't even "born again". They are just Catholics because they were brought up as one.

It makes more sense to have communion with a prot who was truly born again and had a living faith in the Lord Jesus and a personal relationship with Him, than a Catholic who didn't really know what they believed and just said a few rosary prayers now and again.

However, I guess it's judge not that we be not judged.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 13 2005, 06:40 AM'] John 6:55 [/quote]
I believe that Scripture - but for me the bread has never turned into real human flesh which I have to chew, and the wine has never turned into real human blood which I have to taste. However, nevertheless I still believe that the emblems are the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Most Catholics don't drink the wine anyhow. Just a little tinkle on the bell is all they get isn't it?

Whether they change after they have been swallowed - I don't know. That is for God to decide, though I doubt it. That does not alter the truth of the words of the Lord though.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 08:33 AM'] This is just your belief and mind-set on it.

How do you know it becomes the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus? Can you taste the flesh, and taste the blood in your mouth?

Blood has a very specific taste, and human flesh would need an awful lot of chewing. [/quote]
No this is actually the teaching of the Church founded by Jesus Christ. However if you are in a man-made group, then of course errors have crept in.

So Holy Communion is the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ because he said it was. This has been Church teaching for 2000 years.
St Paul even states it.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 05:56 AM']Having received communion in non-Catholics churches since I was 15, I do not think they eat and drink judgement upon themselves (though some do if they are leading an unholy life).

I believe that Catholics can eat and drink judgement on themselves too:  if they take the Eucahrist, and then go out an abuse children, or commit fornication - they will be eating and drinking judgement upon themselves.

This Scripture does not apply to "protestant" believers only.[/quote]
This is an interesting perspective. Since I've generally encountered protestants who believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved" (OSAS), I figured that protestants thought that they could never "eat or drink judgment on themselves" by sharing in a purely symbolic communion. Heck, if no actual sin can keeping them from eternal union with God in heaven, why should there be a problem with eating bread as a symbolic union with God? (I'd really like to know how you would answer this question.)

To address your point regarding Catholics, it's interesting that you mention that some non-Catholics can lead an "unholy life" (nice and non-specific), while you mention that Catholics can abuse children and commit fornication. Do you see the emotional tugging in this contrast you've made?

Anyway, my first comment is this: your hypothetical situation is flipped around: we don't eat/drink judgment when we receive the Eucharist before we sin; we eat/drink judgment when we receive the Eucharist [b]after[/b] we sin--assuming we haven't confessed our sin. (Note: I'm just talking about mortal sins, here--see [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john5.htm#v17"]1 John 5:17[/url])

In this discussion, you shouldn't limit yourself to two sexual sins. Getting away from the focus on sex (which isn't the only sin!), any single mortal sin causes us to lose sanctifying grace. God forbid we would die in such a state! But, Catholics should not receive the Eucharist when they are conscious of unrepentant mortal sin--doing so, they would certainly "eat and drink judgment upon themselves."

[b]Non-Catholics[/b]

I think that a better way to understand the restriction as it applies to non-Catholics is to look at the sacraments. The Eucharist assumes an ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ, and incorporation in His Mystical Body the Church through the sacraments of Initiation: Baptism and Confirmation.

A parallel would be pre-marital sex and cohabitation between a couple who intends to marry. The wedding (i.e. initiation) precedes the married life. Even if the two believe they were going to be married the next day, they abstain from sexual relations until they have been married. Interestingly, the engaged couple that does not abstain before their wedding commits the sin of fornication, and "eat and drink judgment on themselves."

God bless you.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 06:29 AM'] I have problems even walking into a Catholic church because of the idols, but I'm interested in all your views on it. [/quote]
Just a little tangent: there is a difference between "idols" and "statues." If you consider statues to be idolotry, you'd better re-read the Old Testament. God commanded the use of statues--even to Moses. I'd be happy to discuss this further in another thread. I don't want to get totally off topic here!

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 06:10 AM'] I know. I wouldn't break bread with a Muslim or Hindu or anyone like that: I'm talking about simple folk who truly believe in the Lord Jesus. I couldn't break bread with unbelievers or anything like that: but it just seems so arrogant to get up and walk out of a church or a room where they are having communion because they do not believe in exactly the same doctrines as we do (say over the devil, or heaven or hell etc).

It is unholy living which is the only grounds for separation at the Lord's Table surely? [/quote]
A couple more little points:

1) You'll be happy to know that non-Catholics don't have to leave the church during communion. They (along with Catholics who don't feel disposed to receive communion) simply remain in the pews...and nobody gives it a second thought!

2) Regarding grounds for separation at the Lord's table, there are a variety of reasons for not receiving communion: not keeping the one-hour fast before receiving (pretty hard not to!), not being old enough (no babies), not having been baptiised/confirmed, etc.

No one can assume the motivations of a person who chooses not to receive communion, so it's not a big deal. I can't imagine people looking at someone who remains in the pew and saying, "Well, they must be damned!" LOL! In fact, I usually gain a lot of respect for those who remain in the pews, because it shows a reverence and understanding of the importance of the Holy Eucharist.

God bless!

[Quietfire]

[quote]only 12 of the original 72 got up and walked out[/quote]

Sorry, I need to correct this.
It should have read...

only 12 stayed. The remainder of the 72 got up and walked out .


[url="http://members.aol.com/SocratesMG/index10a.html"]check this out[/url]

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Apr 13 2005, 11:01 AM'] not having been baptiised/confirmed, etc. [/quote]
You don't need to be confirmed to receive... remember all those 8 and 9 year olds who are about to receive First Holy Communion??

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Apr 13 2005, 12:18 PM']You don't need to be confirmed to receive... remember all those 8 and 9 year olds who are about to receive First Holy Communion?? [/quote]
Well, I was talking about adults, Mrs. Technical! LOL

I should have known someone would catch this one!

[Priscilla]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 13 2005, 08:15 AM'] No this is actually the teaching of the Church founded by Jesus Christ. However if you are in a man-made group, then of course errors have crept in.

So Holy Communion is the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ because he said it was. This has been Church teaching for 2000 years.
St Paul even states it. [/quote]
Yes - I believe that, but I'm talking about the bread and wine actually becoming flash and blood. I seriously doubt whether that happens literally; but certainly figuratively it does.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 05:56 AM'] I believe that Catholics can eat and drink judgement on themselves too: if they take the Eucahrist, and then go out an abuse children, or commit fornication - they will be eating and drinking judgement upon themselves.

This Scripture does not apply to "protestant" believers only. [/quote]
You are correct. NO ONE who is unworthy or in the wrong disposition should receive. Protestant or otherwise. Protestants should not receive, nor should Catholics in a state of mortal sin.