ironmonk Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 The stupidity of man who leave the Catholic Church... Life begins at day 14, say Anglicans By Peta Rasdien LIFE does not begin when sperm meets egg, but 14 days later, the Anglican Church declared yesterday. Speaking at the Fertility Society of Australia annual scientific meeting in Perth, Anglican Primate Peter Carnley said this meant objections to in-vitro fertilisation, genetic testing and stemcell research should fall away. Dr Carnley said until it was implanted in a womb lining, a fertilised egg was not an individual human life but rather a "genetically novel kind of cell". The fertilised egg must also pass the point that it could split to become an identical twin, which occurred at about 14 days. Following that, the embryo should be accorded the status of an individual human being with rights to care, protection and life, Dr Carnley said. His position clearly contradicts that of the Catholic Church which holds that life begins when an egg is fertilised. But Dr Carnley said the history of the debate about the beginning of life within the Christian faith did not come to that view until 1869 when Pope Pius IX declared all abortion was wrong from the start of conception. Dr Carnley argued that scientific knowledge about fertilisation and the beginning of life had moved forward since then and must be taken into account. "Given recent advances in the understanding of the development of the embryo, I think it is now clear that we must begin to think of conception less as a moment and more in gradual and continuous terms as a process," Dr Carnley said. "Given that twinning can occur up to the 14th day of this process, it is not logically possible to talk of the conception of a unique human individual prior to the completion of this process. "Each of us can say that we came to be in the sense that we were each conceived, as a potential human individual 14 days after the fertilisation of an ovum, not before." Dr Carnley said once fertilisation and conception were defined, a number of "troublesome difficulties fall away". The natural wastage rate of ova during IVF procedures should not be considered the killing of conceived individuals. "We do not have some 70,000 frozen people on ice at various places around Australia," Dr Carnley said. Embryo experimentation and stemcell research were also morally acceptable. "Stem cell research also becomes thinkable, for stemcells are harvested well within the 14th day period prior to the completion of the process of conception," he said. Fertility Society of Australia president Anne Jequier said Dr Carnley's arguments made sense. A spokesman from the Catholic Church could not be reached for comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 The stupidity of man who leave the Catholic Church... Life begins at day 14, say Anglicans By Peta Rasdien LIFE does not begin when sperm meets egg, but 14 days later, the Anglican Church declared yesterday. Speaking at the Fertility Society of Australia annual scientific meeting in Perth, Anglican Primate Peter Carnley said this meant objections to in-vitro fertilisation, genetic testing and stemcell research should fall away. Dr Carnley said until it was implanted in a womb lining, a fertilised egg was not an individual human life but rather a "genetically novel kind of cell". The fertilised egg must also pass the point that it could split to become an identical twin, which occurred at about 14 days. Following that, the embryo should be accorded the status of an individual human being with rights to care, protection and life, Dr Carnley said. His position clearly contradicts that of the Catholic Church which holds that life begins when an egg is fertilised. But Dr Carnley said the history of the debate about the beginning of life within the Christian faith did not come to that view until 1869 when Pope Pius IX declared all abortion was wrong from the start of conception. Dr Carnley argued that scientific knowledge about fertilisation and the beginning of life had moved forward since then and must be taken into account. "Given recent advances in the understanding of the development of the embryo, I think it is now clear that we must begin to think of conception less as a moment and more in gradual and continuous terms as a process," Dr Carnley said. "Given that twinning can occur up to the 14th day of this process, it is not logically possible to talk of the conception of a unique human individual prior to the completion of this process. "Each of us can say that we came to be in the sense that we were each conceived, as a potential human individual 14 days after the fertilisation of an ovum, not before." Dr Carnley said once fertilisation and conception were defined, a number of "troublesome difficulties fall away". The natural wastage rate of ova during IVF procedures should not be considered the killing of conceived individuals. "We do not have some 70,000 frozen people on ice at various places around Australia," Dr Carnley said. Embryo experimentation and stemcell research were also morally acceptable. "Stem cell research also becomes thinkable, for stemcells are harvested well within the 14th day period prior to the completion of the process of conception," he said. Fertility Society of Australia president Anne Jequier said Dr Carnley's arguments made sense. A spokesman from the Catholic Church could not be reached for comment. Ironmonk, Can you validate that this is the Angelicans position, and not simply that of a group of Angelicans (or maybe just the Primate, Peter Carnley)? I want to share in your discust, but I can't in good conscience pin it on the religion and not just the individuals. It happens like that all to often with Catholics. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 The article says it's his position. It doesn't claim it's the Anglican position. To be honest with you I'd be surprised if there is any debate about this going on in the Anglican church at the moment given the fact that it is currently fighting to hold onto to its worldwide communion and not split into different factions. And please ironmonk, do you have any gentleness of spirit for those of us from the anglican background? 'More evil from the anglicans' is such an upsetting title for a thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 It's about respecting life, from the first single-cell stages until natural death. Embryo experimentation and stemcell research were also morally acceptable. Maybe that quote is why they say "after 14 days". It gives them justification for doing wrong. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 It also justifies the wrong-doing of taking abortifacient drugs such as the pill, and morning after pill, etc.!!! Since it isn't a person until day 14, we've got two weeks to get rid of it! (poor little baby becomes a hot potato) :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 :P when i was readin this title... i was afraid the ppl who follow the angels might be doin more evil... but then i figured out u meant ANGLICANS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 First of all, I want to say how disgusting this is. To say life begins fourteen days after conception not only has little to no support in science, but it's contrary to the teaching of Christ's Church -- and they know it. Some Anglicans want to be appealing to the mainstream (just as most Democrats do), so they justify things like abortion and same-sex unions so that they will be more appealing to our modern society. I think it's disgusting that some Anglicans are willing to murder and destroy the family in order to be PC and to attract modernists. What some Anglicans need to realize is that the Church is supposed to be a "sign of contradiction," in the world but not of the world. The Anglican Communion has become too worldly, which is precisely why we know for certain that it is not the Church founded by Christ. I apologize to any Anglicans that may offend, I really do, but that's my belief. All of that said, I think "More Evil From the Anglicans" was a bad subject line, Ironmonk. As the media has briefly pointed out lately, not all Anglicans have such a liberal modernist attitude. Let's not forget that there were 2,600 Anglicans (and really, probably many more) opposing the consecration of an actively gay bishop and the possibility of same-sex unions. I have little doubt that they would also oppose these views on human life and abortion. So you can't really say: "More Evil From the Anglicans," because not all Anglicans are the same. My main concern is that if an Anglican came in this phorum and saw your subject line, he or she might be majorly offended and might never think twice about the Catholic Church. Without compromising the truth, of course, we want to avoid anything that would pose a stumbling block to our separated brothers and sisters, always remembering that the conversion process is very difficult for them already without us making it more difficult. "More Evil from an Anglican Primate" or "More Evil from Anglican Leadership" may have been acceptable, but "More Evil From the Anglicans" is just too unnecessarily divisive, in my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdewolf2 Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Hopefully, though, an orthodox, conservative Anglican would understand what was meant. "More Evil from the Anglicans" might give him pause for reflection, and spur him on to pray fervently for the Anglican Communion. All these developments, though, make it hard to really believe in a day when the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church will be re-united. Here are some conservative Anglican websites which are a hopeful sign: Forward in Faith International orthodoxAnglican.org Anglican Mission in America Classical Anglican Net News American Anglican Council To learn more about Anglicanism, check out these websites: Anglican Library Project Canterbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Do you think this primate has read the Book of the Prophet Jeremiah? He could Start with Chapter 1 . . .. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew You." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdewolf2 Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 More conservative/traditional Anglican websites: Anglo-Catholic Central Anglicans United and Latimer Press NOEL Concerned Clergy and Laity of the Episcopal Church Christian Challenge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 I wouldn't go as far to say all Anglicans are doing evil such as this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Do you think this primate has read the Book of the Prophet Jeremiah? He could Start with Chapter 1 . . .. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew You." I doubt it. I bet he hasn't even read the Bible passages that condemn homosexual activity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Perth archbishops disagree on when life begins Perth Catholic Archbishop Barry Hickey yesterday challenged the assertion of Anglican Primate and Archbishop of Perth Peter Carnley, that human life begins 14 days after the sperm meets the egg. Dr Carnley told delegates at the Fertility Society of Australia's annual scientific meeting on Tuesday that conception is a process that ends about 14 days after fertilisation. Dr Carnley argued that until it was implanted in a womb lining and the possibility of splitting to become an identical twin - which could happen up until 14 days - had passed, the fertilised egg did not require the rights to care, protection and life that an embryo would. But Archbishop Hickey (pictured) said scientists could tell whether a fertilised egg was to grow into a boy or girl and many other characteristics long before it was 14 days old. "Some people want to be allowed to screen embryos much earlier than 14 days in order to be able to decide which ones will be given the chance to proceed to full development and which will not," Archbishop Hickey said. Archbishop Hickey said Dr Carnley's position meant IVF, abortion before 14 days, destruction of embryos and the morning-after pill would all be justified. Catholic teaching was that every person must be treated with dignity from the moment of conception to death. "Once we start to differentiate between people on whatever grounds - health, intelligence, usefulness, race, colour or creed - we deny the inherent dignity of the person," he said. "This removes the principle of the equality of persons which is the foundation of a just human society." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdewolf2 Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 These people read the Bible. They just don't take it seriously. Like "Bishop" Gene Robinson said, "Just because something goes against Scripture and tradition doesn't necessarily make it wrong." What a joke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 [quote name='Ellenita' date='Nov 5 2003, 04:37 PM'] And please ironmonk, do you have any gentleness of spirit for those of us from the anglican background? [/quote] Ah, sorry to bump it but thought that summed Ironmonk up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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