Protestants

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Apr 17 2005, 12:15 PM'] The "death" of the body is the separation of body and soul. The "death" of the soul is the separation of the soul from supernatural life, that is, from God (aka hell).

Those in Heaven do in fact know the goings on of earth. But Heaven is not about floating around looking down on earth, but about an eternal communion of love between God and each person who has opened themselves up to his life.

"There is greater joy in Heaven over one soul who repents, then over ninety-nine righteous ones who have no need of repentance". How can the people in Heaven rejoice over what happens on earth unless they know what's going on on earth? [/quote]
We'll have to agree to disagree.

The joy in heaven is that of the angels: not of "immortal" souls.

Immortality is not inherent. Nowhere is Scripture does it say that man is immortal in any way, shape or form THAT IS A PAGAN IDEA. And a Greek mindset. We are not born with immortal souls: that is the first lie "You shall not die" of the serpent.

God alone has immortality. Immortality is granted to men and women at the resurrection.

Those who have gone before are not made perfect yet (Hebrews 11:40). They are awaiting the resurrection.

But I've come to see that maybe God doesn't mind if we believe we have immortal souls: so many people DO believe it, and I believe He is merciful and gracious and understands that we are but dust.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Actually, the words in Genesis 3:4, of the serpent are "you shall not die die", or, in many older (and better) translations "you shall not die the death". This is a crucial difference. What does it mean to "die the death"?
God said they would die. Satan said they would not. They ate. They lived...Or did they?

[Priscilla]

Good point Fides. I've decided it might be best if I start a new topic on this subject later when I have more time.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]The joy in heaven is that of the angels: not of "immortal" souls.[/quote]

To the contrary. We read in the prophecy of Isaiah the ominous warning to the rulers of the earth:

[quote]Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come, it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. All of them will speak and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!' (14:9-10)[/quote]

Note that not only is the wicked king conscious of his surroundings in sheol, but other kings are there and verbally upbraid him. The soul does not cease to exist after death, and neither does it lose consciousness. It goes to its reward, whether for good or for bad. This is evident also in many New Testament accounts. For example, Lazarus and the rich man do not cease to exist after death. Both of them are still alive and conscious (one conscious of his reward, the other conscious of his punishment). There is also the apparition of Moses and Elijah, on Mount Tabor, during the transfiguration. The book of Revelation also records the cry of the martyrs, who verbally beseech God to avenge their blood:

[quote]'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?' (6:10)[/quote]

Note that not only are they conscious of their own existence, but they converse with God. They have not ceased to exist, for the soul is immortal. It cannot cease to exist. Remember that the Lord himself "preached to the spirits in prison" during his descent into hades (1Peter 3:19). It would be futile to preach if there were no one to listen.

Edited April 17, 2005 by Eremite

[Priscilla]

Thanks Eremite: it's a big subject which needs a separate thread I think because not all prots believe what I do about death: most of them believe what Catholics believe that man has an immortal soul.

There is actually A LOT OF CATHOLICISM IN PROTESTANTISM.

More than you all think.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 17 2005, 02:12 PM'] Thanks Eremite: it's a big subject which needs a separate thread I think because not all prots believe what I do about death: most of them believe what Catholics believe that man has an immortal soul.

There is actually A LOT OF CATHOLICISM IN PROTESTANTISM.

More than you all think. [/quote]
I didn't know there were Protestants who believed that man does not have an immortal soul. I know there are those who reject hell because they don't think a loving God can send people to hell.

But you are right, there is Catholicism in Protestantism. That is an interesting admission.

All denominations, and in fact, all religions contain within them seeds of truth. (Muslims believe in a god, in fact there is a God, so they have a seed of the truth which can be used to evangelize them). Protestantism is close to the Church that she decided to divorce and still has many elements of the truth - belief in Christ, the Trinity, salvation by faith, in many the true covenant theology of baptism. Seeds of truth remain. It is up to Protestants when they see error in something the Church believes or does, not to divorce the body of Christ, but instead to work towards and for reform from within in those disciplinary matters, and to ask questions for clarification, to seek knowledge on doctrinal matters.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 17 2005, 07:08 PM'] God says they do: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" [/quote]
Um, John 3:16 ?

[ardillacid]

Priscilla-

Please stop saying we will have to agree to disagree. In no way will that help anyone find the truth. The fact is someone is right, and someone is wrong. I have heard that phrase thrown around by too many politicians to have any appreciation for it.

Tum

[Priscilla]

Sorry ardillacid: I just thinks it's better to do that than backbite and devour one another in debate.

But I will try and abide by your wishes.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

What about Moses and Abraham? They're both mentioned in the New Testament as living - at the Transfiguration and in the account of the beggar and the rich man?

And what does the passage in Hebrews mean that says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses?

[Honour]

I'm going to throw this in here about the original topic...I'm a protestant...but only say that on PM b/c personally I don't like being called that, I know many non-catholic christians who don't. Why...because they honestly believe their religion predated the catholic church...followers of Christ avoiding the oppression of the Roman Catholic Church through out history....they believe they go right back to the book of acts.... Whether its true or not, it is their religion and they deserve to be callled what ever they ask, to a reasonable extent....why would you wish to offend?