BLAZEr Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Remember, the earliest forms of Mass took place in Christian homes. It is was originally a friendship meal in memory of Jesus. -Mark OH THE MISINFORMATIONS!!!!! The early Church did not celebrate a radically different liturgy from us. Yes, there were no Churches, but it's amazing jsut how much the Liturgy according to Cyril of Jerusalem, looks like our mass today. And the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is as old as dirt . . . well, at least 1700 years old . . . and entirely unchanged . . . THey did celebrate mass in Homes, and underground . . . but it tended to be the SAME places, even if there was a Rotation . . . and it was usually in Big CROWDED rooms . . . it's not like the Early Bishops were coming over and doing it on the couch sitting down at a lttle table . . . it was a Liturgy re-Presenting the Passion and Death of our Lord, in the Form of the Last Supper . . . And, as soon as the Romans stopped lobbing off their heads, the Christians codified the mass, instituted rules, and built Temples (churches) for worship . . . it should tell you something . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetarplayer Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 All I said was what I was told from my Catholic Worship book. Please don't lob my head off. In the beginning of the Church's history, the Eucharist was celebrated as a fellowship meal, or "love feast", called an agape. Christians shared the food that each person brought to the Sunday assembly, and they referred to this meal as the Lord's Supper. As the number of members increased, the meal was gradually reduced to a simpler fare of bread and wine, the essential elements of the Eucharist. For many years after the full meal ceased being common practice, however, Christians still brought food to their services to share with poor people. Today the offertory collection echoes that early spirit of giving at the Eucharist. Over the first three centuries of Christianity, the Eucharist evolved from a fellowship meal to a ritual meal. Some variations in its celebration existed from community to community, but the basic pattern was the same. The eucharistic part of the ritual consisted of an offering (figts of bread and wine), a thanksgiving prayer over the offered gifts in the earlier Jewish style, a breaking of the bread, and a receiving of the bread and wine by all the participants. More and more, Christians realized that by participating in this ritual meal, they were entering into the mystery of Christ's sacrifice, death, and Resurrection. They were doing more than sharing a love feast; they were participating in their own redemption. -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 i sure blazer didnt mean it that way, he was just sharing some very important information and knowledge with us. thats all. thanks blazer. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 I have friends that are really into the Lifeteen Mass that say that traditional style Masses are stuffy. I don't place judgment on them for the opinions they have, though I certainly have every right to disagree with them. So when we ask them to GROW UP, when they are too old for lifeteen, are they going to go to those "stuffy "masses or just want more entertainment. Are we going to have to have "post" lifeteen Masses for those who can't handle the change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Mark . . . I didn't mean to "lob" your head off! That's why I started by sticking out my tongue! I figured you had read that somewhere, in fact, I've read it places . . . Agape Meals some tend to call them . . . this is just bad history, not to mention poor theology. They did share a meal, it was part of their fellowship, but this guy makes it sound Oh so sweet! . . . the reality is that these people were being persecuted . . . why would they get together just to eat? No, something BIGGER was happening . . . they were celebrating the Death and Resurrection and Redemption . . . this guy, Stotze-whoseit makes it sound like this was not an original part of their reason to get together . . . I just do not find any evidence in the writings of the Fathers for this theory . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Are we going to have to have "post" lifeteen Masses for those who can't handle the change? ...MidLife Mass? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetarplayer Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 You know, teens aren't the only people who attend and benefit from LifeTeen Masses. -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breauxlg Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 I would like to apologize. I re-read my post and I sounded like a butt head. I wish I could put my opinions across more clearly without doing that. Thanks for calling me on it. If I had let my wife read that post before hitting "ADD", she would have beat you all to it. I do pray for myself, and for all of you, who all obviously love our Church very much. Lynn Breaux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Ok, you're forgiven, we love you! But please, no hugs! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Aww, it's okay. I was being too testy myself. I'm very sorry. *sigh* I do believe hugs are okay in Catholic internet threads according to Canon Law... ........... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traichuoi Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 The LIFE TEEN program in it's catechesis is amesome. I am an assitant youth minister at a LIFE TEEN parish. i love many aspects of LT. HOWEVER, i do agree that there are liturgical abuses. for me, it's a big battle between me and the music minister. the liturgy (even LT admits) is very liberal. the teaching is very orthodox which is amesome. working inside LT and within the structure in Phoenix, i know of the philosophy of this program really well and i believe it's the strongest i've ever seen amongst youth ministry programs. one mistake i see in the LT liturgy is this: it's based too much on feelings. whenever you hear an LT mass-goer describe the mass, they always say, "It makes me FEEL good." well, our mass is NOT supposed to be based on feelings. that's for the protestant services who have to create feelings because they don't have Christ in front of them in body, blood, soul, and divinity. there is too much emphasis on the music trying to create this feeling. i believe we are cutting our Catholic teens short of the Truth which is they don't have to FEEL good to mean that mass is great. another liturgical abuse is the music chosen for mass. why are they all protestant songs? these songs are created with protestant theology for protestant purposes. these songs do not have a place in liturgy. ultimately, for me as a youth minister i am working proactively within the LT structure instead of sitting on my hiney trying to complain. our youth do need a program with many aspects that LT uses...and like many other things, LT just needs to be improved constantly and it is always better to be working alongside our Catholic brothers and sisters towards change than to sit on the sidelines and yell and criticize. pax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 ultimately, for me as a youth minister i am working proactively within the LT structure instead of sitting on my hiney trying to complain. our youth do need a program with many aspects that LT uses...and like many other things, LT just needs to be improved constantly and it is always better to be working alongside our Catholic brothers and sisters towards change than to sit on the sidelines and yell and criticize. pax amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 I actually don't mind most of the "protestant" songs . . . most of them have a higher Theology than just about anything out of the Gather Hymnal or all the liberal theology that comes from most of the Oregan Catholic Press . . . not that they don't have their good stuff . . . but a lot of it (David Haas, et al) are just trying to reconstruct the Church in our own image rahter than God's Image . . . Shout to the Lord, Come Now is the Time to Worship, etc . . . there are many songs that are perfectly legit . . . most of it adresses God as God, which is what we are supposed to do at mass, not sing about ourselves or in God's Voice "Be not afraid, I go before you always" . . . that's God saying that, but we're singing it?? Talk about messing up the Masses purpose . . . and that's a "catholic" song . . . in fact one song that most people thing is fine "Amazing Grace" has a serious anti-Catholic undertone, and some bad theology: "the hour I first believed" . . . I don't have a problem with LifeTeens music usually, but I do have a problem with Substituting the Psalm with some song, standing during the consecration, standing in the sanctuary (i.e. gathering around the altar) . . . those are abuses . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 This discussion is so annoyingly repetitive... I love Lifeteen...it's an amazing ministry and an anointed one @ that... Praise GOD for His gift of Lifeteen. Life Teen is so annoying rebellious with regard to the liturgy. "We'll do it our way and to h--- with Church law." But otherwise, they say, we're orthodox! Does that Protestant language come from the influence of LT, inDouche? (I know you're from St. Tim's in Mesa, Arizona, HQ of Life Teen, and I'm from Phoenix.) I agree with Traichuoi that the success of Life Teen is measured in feelings. Was the Mass entertaining enough for you? Did you have a good time? And the music is a large part of that. That's why I say we need a sociological study to measure it's long term effects. Parents have told me their post-LT kids say the "regular" Mass is too boring and they don't want to go anymore. They've never been taught the meaning of reverence and true worship. They want Mass to be centered on them -- even though they're not teens anymore. Since it isn't, to heck with it. JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Likos did you read Bishop Chaput's catechesis?? Yes, BLAZEr, I did. And I'm certain that Bishop Chaput did not intend that priests announce to the entire congregation, "Everybody get in the Communion line, and when those who can't receive Communion arrive in front of me, I'll tell them to make a spiritual communion." As I read it, what the Bishop is teaching that the "blessings in lieu of Communion" should cease immediately, but anyone who shows up in the Communion line who can't receive (due to improper catechesis in the past) should be told to make a spiritual communion. This certainly would be preferable to scolding the person, turning them away, or other treatment that could be perceived as rude. The bishop is giving a pastoral solution to address an existing problem. But there is no provision for this procedure in the GIRM. The practice of "blessings in lieu of Communion" has caused many misunderstandings and hurt feelings. I used to participate in a discussion group for people who were interested in becoming Catholic. Some of these attended Churches where these illicit "blessings in lieu of Communion" were given. Then, when they attended a different Mass or Church where the priests were obedient to the rubrics, and they presented themselves for a blessing, their feelings were hurt when they were turned away. The poor priest had no idea what they wanted -- he tried to give them Communion, since they were in the Communion line, and when they shook their heads "no," he asked them to step to the side. Some pretty bizarre things were reported. I spent a lot of time explaining to them that it's not allowed, the priest who gave the blessings was wrong, the other priest was right, etc., and they should not have hurt feelings because they shouldn't have been in the line in the first place. Not their fault -- faulty catechesis. I predict that without the payoff of a blessing, up close and personal, there will soon be nobody in the Communion line except those receiving Communion. You know as well as I do, that nobody needs to be given permission to make a spiritual communion. Which is all the priest would be doing in the Diocese of Denver. Hooray for Bishop Chaput! Catechumens and candidates, stay right where you are and make a spiritual communion! I have a suggested prayer if you would like me to post it. JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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