Life Teen Abuses

[cmotherofpirl]

So tell me again why its so hard for tL to obey the rubics as written?

I wrote to them about it and the said they are working with the Bishops.

Why can't they just obey?

I wrote them again and asked them if tere was a specific document giving them from ANYBODY giving them permission to stand around the altar.

THey didn't answer that one.

[breauxlg]

What do you do when your priest says a Mass in your home? What constitutes the Sanctuary area. Does he go into the kitchen and then come out to distribute communion? Are you going to tell you Mom or Grandmother that it's not right to hold your hand during the Our Father? If you really believe you are part of the Body of Christ, you should feel the need to physically connect with the other parts of the body. I guess hugging and nurturing are cheesy too. Cheesy? Or just uncomfortable for someone who is not sure he really is part of the Body of Christ.

Are you more concerned about the rules than about salvation? What did Jesus tell the rule-makers when they told Him it was against the rules to heal on the Sabbath. Are you more concerned about the rules than about salvation? Really, ask youself that.

I hate it when kids converse with each other during Mass, but I'm not going to kick them out. I make myself pray for them.I hate it when adults converse with each other during Mass, but I'm not going to kick them out. I make myself pray for them. I love being a part of the Body of Christ. The Church is not a building.

The sanctuary? Where does it start and where does it end? I haven't seen a Vatican architect come around to mark the line. Our church building is built in the round, and the front rows are within 6 feet all around of the Altar riser. Are you telling me it will hurt Jesus' feelings for his kids to be 5 feet closer to the altar when they celebrate his death and resurrection?

I love being Catholic partly because it requires more discipline than all the mainstream Christian sects. You guys who hold all of these things agains LifeTeen, did you watch the World Youth Day Mass? Again, at World Youth Day, the Pope had people on the Altar platform that you would say didn't belong there. Did you write him and tell him he needs to straighten up? Or did you just have someone at LifeTeen hurt your feelings and you can't find it in yourself to forgive?

I am praying for all of you.

Lynn

[BLAZEr]

What do you do when your priest says a Mass in your home? What constitutes the Sanctuary area. Does he go into the kitchen and then come out to distribute communion? Are you going to tell you Mom or Grandmother that it's not right to hold your hand during the Our Father? If you really believe you are part of the Body of Christ, you should feel the need to physically connect with the other parts of the body. I guess hugging and nurturing are cheesy too. Cheesy? Or just uncomfortable for someone who is not sure he really is part of the Body of Christ.

Are you more concerned about the rules than about salvation? What did Jesus tell the rule-makers when they told Him it was against the rules to heal on the Sabbath. Are you more concerned about the rules than about salvation? Really, ask youself that.

I hate it when kids converse with each other during Mass, but I'm not going to kick them out. I make myself pray for them.I hate it when adults converse with each other during Mass, but I'm not going to kick them out. I make myself pray for them. I love being a part of the Body of Christ. The Church is not a building.

The sanctuary? Where does it start and where does it end? I haven't seen a Vatican architect come around to mark the line. Our church building is built in the round, and the front rows are within 6 feet all around of the Altar riser. Are you telling me it will hurt Jesus' feelings for his kids to be 5 feet closer to the altar when they celebrate his death and resurrection?

I love being Catholic partly because it requires more discipline than all the mainstream Christian sects. You guys who hold all of these things agains LifeTeen, did you watch the World Youth Day Mass? Again, at World Youth Day, the Pope had people on the Altar platform that you would say didn't belong there. Did you write him and tell him he needs to straighten up? Or did you just have someone at LifeTeen hurt your feelings and you can't find it in yourself to forgive?

I am praying for all of you.

Lynn

That's why masses should not be in your home! Sunday masses are not permitted in "homes" they must be celebrated in the Church. There are seperate rubrics for masses celebrated outside of the Church. The Rules (rubrics) accomodate the reality of the situation. But sloppiness has no excuse.

The emotionalism and sentimentality of the touchy feely liturgy is an imposition upon people who are NOT touchy feely. What if I like to show my affection by sticking my hands down your pantaloons? Should that be allowed too?

And this 'rules' or 'salvation' argument is just plain mularky. Of course we're concerned with Salvation. If you spent more than 30 seconds reading this website you would know that. I love how dumb people use the Healing on the sabbath to condone all sorts of horrible things . . . funny how they never look to Jesus when he says "you have turned my Father's house into a den of theives" . . . I mean, come on, those people were just doing inventive Liturgy!!

No one is suggesting you kick kids out of Church for talking . . . in fact if you had read some of the posts on "Evil Ushers" you would have seen that we love Children and their little discrepancies are teaching moments, not eviction notices. Still, teenagers are not children . . . they are old enough to know that they should have some respect for the TRUE AND REAL PRESENCE OF JESUS in the Tabernacle. IF they can't be quiet and reverent, then someone needs to take them aside and explain to them how to appropriately behave in front of the amesome God who ain't just puttin on the Ritz . . .

We need to have some acknowledgment of Sacred Space. This isn't Sunday Lunch around the Dinner Counter . . . it's the Wedding Banquet of Lamb, the Re-Presentation of Calvary, the Cosmic Union of Heaven and Earth.

I was AT world Youth Day . . . there were not people standing around the altar with the Pope. The altar was in fact, higher than the platform. The only people on the Platform were Bishops and servers. There were people in a special seating area to the side, maybe that's what you thought was people gathered around. And furthermore, it was a mass for 1 million people on a Aircraft tarmak . . . not a Church . . . he never has people standing up around the Altar at St. Peter's Basilica or anywhere for that matter.

We like Lifeteen, we just want it to be better.

Thank you for your prayers, but don't forget to pray for yourself.

Edited November 6, 2003 by BLAZEr

[JP2Iloveyou]

Also, if you are talking about liturgical dancing, as the Pope, Cardinal Ratzinger, and Cardinal Arinze have all said, cultural movements that are part of African, Native American, or Asia culture are permitted. These are not part of American culture and therefore cannot be permitted in Mass. Therefore, since WYD (which I too was at) incorporated many different cultures, they were licit in those circumstances.

[BLAZEr]

I just re-read my post, and I changed it a little bit, but I think i need to offer a clarification. I find breauxlg to be completely out of line in both his tonen and suggestiveness. It comes across as self-righteous and condemnatory. I have no idea who you are, but don't come into my PHAMILY hating the way you just did . . .

sheesh, you haven't even given anyone a chance to get to know you and all ready you're ticking me off! And I usually try to play nice!

Edited November 6, 2003 by BLAZEr

[Lil Red]

nm

Edited November 6, 2003 by Lil Red Devil

[jmjtina]

There has been cause for some SERIOUS concern of some of the Lifteen Masses. This is true in some of the liberal Catholic Churches as well, who have MANY liturgical abuses.

Your right, we should pray for them, however with prayer must come action. you can't walk on by something that is wrong and not do something. Speaking up in today's society, (Especially here in the U.S) will not gain you popularity. Sometimes, i see people who are afraid to speak up against the "popular" choice.

Cmom, has some suggestions I will definitely follow as well as speaking to the CORE members whom I know at another parish. It all boils down to being obediant to the rules of the MASS. Why can't they? Maybe it's a pride issue, maybe it's a popularity issue. I mean popularity as in if they are afraid kids will leave because they start OBEYING the guidelines, then they weren't sincere to begin with.

I'll see Matt Smith in November, and in February. I'll just ask him and sees what he thinks and what can be done. B)

[ICTHUS]

Also, if you are talking about liturgical dancing, as the Pope, Cardinal Ratzinger, and Cardinal Arinze have all said, cultural movements that are part of African, Native American, or Asia culture are permitted.  These are not part of American culture and therefore cannot be permitted in Mass.  Therefore, since WYD (which I too was at) incorporated many different cultures, they were licit in those circumstances.

We have Papua New Guinean cultural masses here in Australia, but I've never been to one....

[Ash Wednesday]

I guess hugging and nurturing are cheesy too. Cheesy? Or just uncomfortable for someone who is not sure he really is part of the Body of Christ.

Are you more concerned about the rules than about salvation? What did Jesus tell the rule-makers when they told Him it was against the rules to heal on the Sabbath. Are you more concerned about the rules than about salvation? Really, ask youself that.

You don't have the right to imply that I am not sure I (or anybody else raising liturgical questions) am really a part of the Body of Christ, or that we're more concerned about rules than about salvation. Holding someone's hand does not make them a member of the Body of Christ. You're made a member of the Body of Christ through Baptism. We are united in the Body of Christ through the Eucharist. Just because someone doesn't like to hold hands during Mass doesn't mean they aren't "hugging and nurturing" kind of people. I'm not saying that there can't be appropriate diversity in the Mass (yes, I was at WYD as well) but you have to draw the line somewhere and liturgical reform is really needed in the Church today. It's not meant to be a joyless ceremony but when Mass becomes a social hour, when people start focusing more on themselves "the community" and less on God, and when you have some 60-75% of Catholics that attend Mass not believe in the True Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, you have a problem.

The reason why I don't like elements that I find "cheesy" is what they represent to me: the emphasis of touchy-feely sentimentality over reverence and sacredness. Throughout a lot of modern Masses, there is an undercurrent of "I'm okay, you're okay, everyone's okay!" Sure, Jesus is a nurturer. But he's a reformer, too. He didn't exactly pat the money changers on the head at the temple. He was reforming what was a lack of reverence and respect for God.

I'm giving my OPINION about liturgical abuses and how my parish participates in the LifeTeen Mass, and I have every right to express that. I have friends that are really into the Lifeteen Mass that say that traditional style Masses are stuffy. I don't place judgment on them for the opinions they have, though I certainly have every right to disagree with them.

Edited November 6, 2003 by Ash Wednesday

[jbike]

The main thing I want clairification on is whether or not the bishops have the authority to say standing around the altar is acceptable. I know what the GIRM says, but LT Priest's and Youth Ministers keep telling me the bishop does have that authority.

[Katholikos]

I'll see Matt Smith in November, and in February. I'll just ask him and sees what he thinks and what can be done.  B)

Tina, if you have contact with the Life Teen administration ppl, please ask them to stop the illicit practice of giving "blessings in lieu of Communion." They've got priests all over this country and overseas imitating them, and the Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist doing it as well. It is not in the rubrics, and therefore not allowed!

Grrrrrrr. I have many LT liturgical abuses to complain about, but this one makes my blood boil. No one should be in the Communion queue except those receiving Holy Communion. Blessings in lieu of Communion is a ridiculous, redundant practice. Shortly after Communion comes the dismissal when everyone in the entire Church is blessed. Do certain people -- non-Catholics and those in mortal sin -- deserve to be blessed twice, and the "good guys" only once?

Likos leaves the computer, face turning purple. Resolves to drive the distance to the Byzantine liturgy where these abuses don't ever occur. He could actually walk to the Melkite liturgy on Sunday, so why doesn't he? Hmmmm? It's only in the Roman Rite that lay people are allowed to act like priests. And priests disobey Church law and "modify and manipulate" the Mass as they please.

Likos takes two aspirin and will call in the morning.

[inDEED]

This discussion is so annoyingly repetitive...

I love Lifeteen...it's an amazing ministry and an anointed one @ that...

Praise GOD for His gift of Lifeteen.

[BLAZEr]

Likos did you read Bishop Chaput's catechesis??

Edited November 6, 2003 by BLAZEr

[geetarplayer]

That's why masses should not be in your home!  Sunday masses are not permitted in "homes" they must be celebrated in the Church.

Remember, the earliest forms of Mass took place in Christian homes. It is was originally a friendship meal in memory of Jesus.

-Mark

Edited November 7, 2003 by geetarplayer

[JP2Iloveyou]

The main thing I want clairification on is whether or not the bishops have the authority to say standing around the altar is acceptable. I know what the GIRM says, but LT Priest's and Youth Ministers keep telling me the bishop does have that authority.

How much authority do individual bishops have when it comes to changing the liturgy?

Only what is granted them by the General Instruction, excerpt below. As you will see, most adaptations are the perogative or the Bishops as a whole, the Conference. The entire GIRM can be purchased from USCCB Publishing at 1-800-235-8722.

CHAPTER NINE

ADAPTATIONS WITHIN THE COMPETENCE OF BISHOPS AND BISHOPS' CONFERENCES

386. The renewal of the Roman Missal, carried out in our time in accordance with the decrees of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, has taken great care that all the faithful may engage in the celebration of the Eucharist with that full, conscious, and active participation that is required by the nature of the Liturgy itself and to which the faithful, in virtue of their status as such, have a right and duty.

In order, however, to enable such a celebration to correspond all the more fully to the norms and the spirit of the Sacred Liturgy, certain further adaptations are set forth in this Instruction and in the Order of Mass and entrusted to the judgment either of the Diocesan Bishop or of the Bishops' Conferences.

387. The Diocesan Bishop, who is to be regarded as the high priest of his flock, and from whom the life in Christ of the faithful under his care in a certain sense derives and upon whom it depends, must promote, regulate, and be vigilant over the liturgical life in his diocese. It is to him that in this Instruction is entrusted the regulating of the discipline of concelebration (cf. above, nos. 202, 374) and the establishing of norms regarding the function of serving the priest at the altar (cf. above, no. 107), the distribution of Holy Communion under both kinds (cf. above, no. 283), and the construction and ordering of churches (cf. above, no. 291). With him lies responsibility above all for fostering the spirit of the Sacred Liturgy in the priests, deacons, and faithful.

388. The adaptations spoken of below that call for a wider degree of coordination are to be decided, in accord with the norm of law, by the Conference of Bishops.

389. It is the competence of the Conferences of Bishops in the first place to prepare and approve an edition of this Roman Missal in the authorized vernacular languages, for use in the regions under their care, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See.

The Roman Missal, whether in Latin or in lawfully approved vernacular translations, is to be published in its entirety.

390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include

* The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);

* The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273 above);

* The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87 above);

* The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362 above);

* The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82 above);

* The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);

* The materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346 above).

Directories or pastoral instructions that the Conferences of Bishops judge useful may, with the prior recognitio of the Apostolic See, be included in the Roman Missal at an appropriate place.

391. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to provide for the translations of the biblical texts used in the celebration of Mass, exercising special care in this. For it is out of the Sacred Scripture that the readings are read and explained in the homily and that psalms are sung, and it is drawing upon the inspiration and spirit of Sacred Scripture that prayers, orations, and liturgical songs are fashioned in such a way that from them actions and signs derive their meaning.

Language should be used that can be grasped by the faithful and that is suitable for public proclamation, while maintaining those characteristics that are proper to the different ways of speaking used in the biblical books.

392. It will also be up to the Conferences of Bishops to prepare, by means of careful study, a translation of the other texts, so that, even though the character of each language is respected, the meaning of the original Latin text is fully and faithfully rendered. In accomplishing this task, it is expedient to take account of the different literary genres used at Mass, such as the presidential prayers, the antiphons, the acclamations, the responses, the litanies of supplication, and so on.

It should be borne in mind that the primary purpose of the translation of the texts is not with a view to meditation, but rather that they be proclaimed or sung during an actual celebration.

Language should be used that is accommodated to the faithful of the region, but is noble and marked by literary quality, and there will always remain the need for some catechesis on the biblical and Christian meaning of certain words and expressions.

It is, inDouche, of advantage that in regions using the same language, the same translation be used whenever possible for liturgical texts, especially for biblical texts and for the Order of Mass.

393. Bearing in mind the important place that singing has in a celebration as a necessary or integral part of the Liturgy, all musical settings of the texts for the people's responses and acclamations in the Order of Mass and for special rites that occur in the course of the liturgical year must be submitted to the Secretariat for the Liturgy of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops for review and approval prior to publication.

While the organ is to be accorded pride of place, other wind, stringed, or percussion instruments may be used in liturgical services in the dioceses of the United States of America, according to longstanding local usage, provided they are truly apt for sacred use or can be rendered apt.

394. Each diocese should have its own Calendar and Proper of Masses. For its part, the of Bishops' Conference should draw up a proper calendar for the nation or, together with other Conferences, a calendar for a wider territory, to be approved by the Apostolic See.

In carrying this out, to the greatest extent possible the Lord's Day is to be preserved and safeguarded, as the primordial holy day, and hence other celebrations, unless they be truly of the greatest importance, should not have precedence over it. Care should likewise be taken that the liturgical year as revised by decree of the Second Vatican Council not be obscured by secondary elements.

In the drawing up of the calendar of a nation, the Rogation and Ember Days should be indicated (cf. above, no. 373), as well as the forms and texts for their celebration, and other special measures should also be taken into consideration.

It is appropriate that in publishing the Missal, celebrations proper to an entire nation or territory be inserted at the correct place among the celebrations of the General Calendar, while those proper to a region or diocese be placed in a special appendix.

395. Finally, if the participation of the faithful and their spiritual welfare requires variations and more thoroughgoing adaptations in order that the sacred celebration respond to the culture and traditions of the different peoples, then Bishops' Conferences may propose such to the Apostolic See in accordance with article 40 of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy for introduction with the latter's consent, especially in the case of peoples to whom the Gospel has been more recently proclaimed. The special norms given in the Instruction On the Roman Liturgy and Inculturation should be carefully observed.

Regarding procedures to be followed in this matter, the following should be followed:

In the first place, a detailed preliminary proposal should be set before the Apostolic See, so that, after the necessary faculty has been granted, the detailed working out of the individual points of adaptation may proceed.

Once these proposals have been duly approved by the Apostolic See, experiments should be carried out for specified periods and at specified places. If need be, once the period of experimentation is concluded, the Bishops' Conference shall decide upon pursuing the adaptations and shall propose a mature formulation of the matter to the Apostolic See for its decision.

396. Before, however, proceeding to new adaptations, especially those more thoroughgoing, great care should be taken to promote the proper instruction of clergy and faithful in a wise and orderly fashion, so as to take advantage of the faculties already foreseen and to implement fully the pastoral norms concerning the spirit of a celebration.

397. Furthermore, the principle shall be respected according to which each particular Church must be in accord with the universal Church not only regarding the doctrine of the faith and sacramental signs, but also as to the usages universally handed down by apostolic and unbroken tradition. These are to be maintained not only so that errors may be avoided, but also so that the faith may be passed on in its integrity, since the Church's rule of prayer (lex orandi) corresponds to her rule of belief (lex credendi).

The Roman Rite constitutes a notable and precious part of the liturgical treasure and patrimony of the Catholic Church. Its riches are of benefit to the universal Church, so that were they to be lost, the Church would be seriously harmed.

Throughout the ages, the Roman Rite has not only preserved the liturgical usages that arose in the city of Rome but has also in a deep, organic, and harmonious way incorporated into itself certain other usages derived from the customs and culture of different peoples and of various particular Churches of both West and East, so that in this way, the Roman Rite has acquired a certain supraregional character. In our own times, on the other hand, the identity and unitary expression of this Rite is found in the typical editions of the liturgical books promulgated by authority of the Supreme Pontiff, and in those liturgical books corresponding to them approved by the Bishops' Conferences for their territories with the recognitio of the Apostolic See.

398. The norm established by the Second Vatican Council—that in the liturgical reform there should be no innovations unless required in order to bring a genuine and certain benefit to the Church, and taking care that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing — must also be applied to efforts at the inculturation of the same Roman Rite. Inculturation, moreover, requires a necessary length of time, lest the authentic liturgical tradition suffer contamination due to haste and a lack of caution.

Finally, the purpose of pursuing inculturation is not in any way the creation of new families of rites, but aims rather at meeting the needs of a particular culture in such a way that adaptations introduced either in the Missal or in combination with other liturgical books are not at variance with the distinctive character of the Roman Rite.

399. And so, the Roman Missal, even if in different languages and with some variety of customs, must be preserved in the future as an instrument and an outstanding sign of the integrity and unity of the Roman Rite.