why did god create the damned?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Apr 10 2005, 12:13 PM'] Hmm. Considering that God is outside time, could it be that he both sees us as we are now and sees everything going on at the end of our life as well? Example - he sees me kill someone. He also see's how that affects my salvation at the same time. So its not that he knows what will happen in the sense that he just knows it but rather he sees our whole life and how it changes as we choose, so in the begining he saw us as we are now, and as we will be, and he sees the final outcomes of everything, so he knows what will finally happen to us in that way..

Erm.. that was confusing. Does anyone understand what i mean and can explain it better? [/quote]
That means god wouldn't know my fate. He just knows what I MIGHT do, not what I absolutely am going to do. This would contradict omnipotence. You are saying he might know my fate according to my current direction in life. If I change that direction, my fate changes. And gods knowledge of my fate changes. Thus god can never know my absolute fate.

[Jaime]

[quote]ow does this relate to someone becomming an atheist?[/quote]

Well the question was, "Why did God create the damned?"

What I'm saying is that creation happens through the hierarchy of laws. We have the permission to create through Natural Law which is set in place from God's law.

In a way I'm agreeing with what is probably your position. We hold responsibility for the propulgation of the species. (You didn't actually say that. but from reading your posts I think it is a safe assumption that this is your view)

So God doesn't create the damned. Nor does he create an atheist. Through natural law , offspring are created. Through God's law, that person has free will. An athiest would say that (s)he was alive due to natural law. I would agree. But I would add the caveat that all natural law is an extension of God's law.

I believe (without assuming to know the mind of God) that it is not God's intention for anyone to be damned.

Let's try this metaphor.

You have a child. This child as a teenager starts taking heroin. You know that if (s)he continues to take heroin the drug will destroy his/her life and (s)he will die. But the final choice is theirs. Incidentally, that's part of the 12 step program. One must take full responsibility for their actions if they want to recover.

You're not wrong in your assessment. You know that the end result for active heroin addicts is death. And you're not omnipotent.

Natural law says that if you are an active heroin user, you risk death.

God's law says that if you reject God, you risk your salvation.

[Aloysius]

God is outside of time; He sees your entire life at one point. He currently sees what you are doing right now, He currently sees what you are going to do, He currently sees what you have done in the past. you could do whatever you want.. God isn't IN this point in time knowing what you are going to do in the future. He is present in every point in time, completely not affected by time. He doesn't know what you do before you do it, He sees what you do at every point in time all at once

[jasJis]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 10 2005, 12:06 PM'] Along the lines of my question that no one answered. Free will allows an infinite number of outcomes for our lives.  How does god know which outcome out of infinity is our definite fate? If he knows what the future holds for me, how can I have free will? [/quote]
infinite choices? not really. it's either up or down, heaven or hell. with God or away from God.
God's ominipotence and our free will work together that we always have that singular choice. period.
God knows what choices we'll make through life, and His omnipotence makes sure we have the opportunity to freely make that choice. circumstances of life may make it easier for some to live the straight and narrow. but even Hitler had the opportunity to ask forgiveness the instant before his death.
we also have the opportunity to work good out of every evil. the evil WWII inflicted upon the world also was an opportunity for good to accoplish. any open and thorough sociological analysis of WWII would see how it advanced technology that improved lives later on. awareness of the world changed world views. the need for cooperation on a larger level, etc., etc.
we find what we look for. a cynical view will only find the shortcomings. a polly-anna view only finds the good. a realistic view finds both the bad and good and provides a truer picture.
answer this question. even though God knows what choice we'll make, that doesn't mean he'll deny us our choice. though God knows that some will choose damnation, He has to allow us that choice or we don't have a free will choice in the one thing that matters.

Edited April 10, 2005 by jasJis

[infinitelord1]

aloysius,

i like that answer

[Aloysius]

Glad I could help out.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 10 2005, 12:06 PM'] Along the lines of my question that no one answered. Free will allows an infinite number of outcomes for our lives. How does god know which outcome out of infinity is our definite fate? If he knows what the future holds for me, how can I have free will? [/quote]
Melchisedec, your question is a very deep metaphysical one, but it is not without an answer.

The flaw in your logic is twofold. First, you make a jump from knowledge to causality that cannot be made. Second, your analysis limits the omnipotence of God.

[b]Concerning Causality[/b]

Divine Foreknowledge does not necessitate Divine Causation. By this, I mean that God can know all the things that you will do without causing you to do them. Take the following example. I see you throw a ball at the head of a man. The man is not looking, and has know idea that the ball is going to hit him. But I see, and I know, even before it happens, that the ball will hit the man in the head. However, my foreknowledge of the event does not mean that I caused the event.

[b]Concerning the Omnipotence of the Almighty[/b]

Your argument hinges on the claim that God knows what you will do "before you actually do it." However, this claim cannot be made - not because there is a limitation in God's knowledge, but rather because you place God within the frame of Time. This however, is a step that cannot be made.

When we consider that God transcends time, we understand that such distinctions as "before" and "after" cannot be used with respect to God in a metaphysical sense.




[b]Back to the Original Question[/b]

Why did God choose to create those who He knows to be damned?

Let us begin, rather, by asking a different question:

Why did God choose to create us at all?

The answer to this is pure love and charity. God did not need to create us, but wanted to our of Divine Love. Moreover, He wants us to enter into a loving relationship with Him, and to share in His Divine Life.

This must necessarily be a free action. Thus, we must have free will. So, what does it take in order for an action to be free?

First, there must really be options, and second, our choice between those options must be decided by our own nature (ie, not an external force). Now, if God only created those who are saved, then there would not really be a choice.

Perhaps an illustration will help:

Door A and Door B exist, so long as at least one person chooses each. If everyone enters into Door B, then Door A does not exist. Likewise, if everyone enters into Door A, then Door B does not exist.

Now, if Door A does not exist, then entering into Door B is not a choice. Similarly, if Door B does not exist, then entering into Door A is not a choice.

Thus, in order for there to be a choice at all, both Door A and Door B must exist. So, if both Doors exist, and a person enters into one or the other door without compulsion, that choice is a free choice.

Therefore, we need only call Door A "Damnation" and Door B "Salvation" in order to see the answer to your question. If God did not create the damned, then "Damnation" would not exist. If Damnation does not exist, then the choice for salvation is not a free choice. But in order to enter into salvation, a free choice is necessary. Therefore, it is necessary for Salvation that Damnation also exist as a real possibility.

Remember, just because God creates those who are damned does not mean that He [i]causes[/i] them to be damned. He creates them, and they are given a choice. That choice is a free choice, because no external force causes them to be damned, only themselves.




***That which is immediately above is my own personal theological understanding at this time. It is in no way authoritative, and there are other catholic theologians who would disagree - one such person is Hans Urs von Balthasar, who maintains that there need not be a single soul in Hell.***

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Quietfire]

Infinite,
Read the posts above, yes. Some of those answers are awesome and a big help even to me...(still learning)
Then chew on this...
I have two nieces.
Both of them have CP.
When I stand before God, one of the first things I will say to Him is "Thank you for Stephanie and Jessica."

There was a time when people didnt hesitate institutionalizing handicapped and/or retarded people.
I see it this way. God allowed my nieces to be born even though they would be mentally and developmentally delayed. 100 years ago, I may not have had the opportunity to see the beauty that is in them both because from birth they would have been "locked away"(as this was common).
I dont blame God because of their handicap. Certain events took place and choices made and here they both are. Had certain other choices been made, the outcome may have been different. But the choices were there none the less, and through no fault on anyones part, they are both handicapped.

The miracle here is the effect they have on others. They do not see themselves as limited, (others may, but not those two!)
Everything they do, everything they have ever done, to me, has been a miracle.

When and if they spoke...wow!
The first time they both smiled. Well, Jessie took longer. She didnt have all her motor skills lined up for quite a while and so the first time she smiled...we all cried. She's been smiling ever since.
Feeding themselves.

You know, all the things we all take for granted had to be shown over and over a hundred thousand times for the girls to finally get it. Some things they still cannot do. But everything they can do is nothing short of amazing.

Again, God gave us those girls because, and I truly believe this, it was for our benefit. They are a gift that must be revered. They force you to slow down and smell the roses, appreciate what you have that much more.
When they smile, it's a truly genuine smile. Thier love for you is true love.

And yes. They are handicapped. They have many challenges and hurdles. But they have taught me that nothing is impossible, because that's how they see life.

Although I cannot speak for God, I do know they are here for a reason. They do not possess wasted lives. They both have taught me more than me having taught them. They are the blessed ones, and I sit in awe of them both.

So you are wondering, why were they created if they were to end up handicapped? No matter what, through those choices they are handicapped.

The choices are always there, though we may refuse them. Yes, He knows what your choices will be...but He doesnt take your choices away nonetheless. Nothing is an accident with God. If it were, it would be the same as saying that you shouldnt have been created at all, and that isnt possible because everything God creates is good.
Maybe we need to think more in the lines of thought that just because you may see a 'wasted life' (not your words, your's were 'damned'), that 'wasted life' may just lead someone else to God and thus redeeming themselves as well.
We all have an important role here in our own life and the lives of those we touch and maybe, we may get to have a positive impact on someone we have never met. If we all just realized how special we are in God's plan and understood the impact of that then noone would ask questions like yours.
If either of my nieces ever asked me "Why was I even born, I am so damaged." My honest answer would be "God sent you to lead me back to Him, and I am so grateful to you both and to God for creating you."


Pax.

Edited April 10, 2005 by Quietfire

[Melchisedec]

hot stuff, Aloysius, and jeffcr07. Excellent replies!! In the context of god existing outside of time, I can see how free will is possible.

[Q the Ninja]

I have two things to add, but I love to be difficult.

1) Augustine explains it as God knows you so well that He knows what you will choose in every situation. Aquinas says that God knows the exemplar (often referred to as Form) of every action possible and every outcome. That's how He can possibly know everything in advance. Personally I like to think that because He's outside of time He sees everything.

2) Everything that happens comes through God's will (antecedent and consequent). He antecendentally wills all people to be saved, but consequently wills some men to be saved and some to be damned.

Often His wills are known as passive and active. I was told to stop using this by my professor because God is all act. LoL, anyways.

God will have everyone saved (as Aquinas says) but because of His justice there are some that must be damned for their not choosing Him (consequent will).

Now as to the way God wills things to be done, he has two "options" (this may get confusing, I apologize): necessary and contingent.

[quote name='St. Thomas di Aquino']Now God wills some things to be done necessarily, some contingently, to the right ordering of things, for the building up of the universe. Therefore to some effects He has attached necessary causes, that cannot fail; but to others defectible and contingent causes, from which arise contingent effects. Hence it is not because the proximate causes are contingent that the effects willed by God happen contingently, but because God prepared contingent causes for them, it being His will that they should happen contingently.[/quote]

In otherwords, the contingent causes can be hindered by something else (Thomas gives the example of the sun's light being effected by something on the planet, such as clouds) [contingent]. This is how not all men are saved.

I agree with Jeff that it was only just for God to create those whom He knew would be damned. God, too must act in accord with Goodness, to do otherwise would be a contradition of His nature (and actually lower Him below what He is, but that's a different subject). This means that He cannot just choose those that He knows will be saved, for that doesn't give a choice...it negates free will.

Also, as I said above, all happens through God's will. What I have not said is that all happens for the BETTERMENT in the world. God allowed those who will be damned (and those that already are) because they actually allow for more good. God does not allow but that which He can improve upon.

Let's take Judas for example. It's possible that he's in Hell (I really hope not, but you never know). If he is, then we can ask why God created him in the first place. However, if Judas didn't exist, how would Jesus have been betrayed? Then how would He have died on the Cross? "Oh gloroius sin that gave us such a wonderful savior." Without the damned, God couldn't do much of the work He does. Because of Judas, we now have a restored nature and the possibility of salvation, not to mention we no longer have to worry about the separation of our body and soul forever.

Well, this is all I can do for now, I hope it helps.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Apr 10 2005, 07:51 PM'] Augustine explains it as God knows you so well that He knows what you will choose in every situation. [/quote]
Amen to that. He knows us better than ourselves, and he knows what decisions we would make.

Funny, i was so stuck on this before all of you explained it well, and at mass today, that same idea that Augustine had came to me out of no where.

God comforts.

[Antonius]

I don't know if this has been used before, but I will say it. I read it on lifeteen's website a long time ago methinks.

The way God knows what choice we will make and still at the same time not infringe on our free will works like this. Suppose I invite you over to my house. I give you two choices for our meal - chocolate cake and monkey brains. I know that you will choose chocolate cake over the monkey brains, but you still get to make the choice. You still come over my house and eat the cake, but in no way did I force you to eat the cake.

Ok, I'm not a philosopher, but the analogy works for me. God ,quite simply, knows everything, by definition. That includes our choices. Also, He knows that we are more than our choices! But now I'm getting off topic.

[God Conquers]

God doesn't create the damned, He damns the created.

[Melchisedec]

Im left wondering if free will is coercive in nature? I point a gun to your head and I tell you to take your clothes off. I have free will. I decide against it and I get shot in the head. I decide to undress and Im spared momentarily. Believe, goto heaven. Dont believe, get tortured in hell forever. Your thoughts?

[God Conquers]

You've pretty much just described Pascal's Wager.

And it's true.

You could live a depraved life without God. If you're right... well you're dead at the end.

If you're wrong. Well... it REALLY smells of elderberries.

If you live as a Catholic and you're wrong then... well, at teh end of life you're dead. Same deal.

If you're right.... sweet.... life forever in the best place possible.