Jaime Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 We are overlooking a step in the creation process folks. Infinite's question may truly be "Do we have free will and God still know what we will do with it?" But the question posed is "Why does God create people who will be damned to Hell?" That's a different question. Not to say the whole fatalism v free will topic isn't one worthy of discussion but its not the one posed. So thanks to a few on the board, we seem to have an overall agreement about free will. We have it. But Infinite, to answer your question of "Why does God create people who will be damned to Hell?" You need to incorporate the hierarchy of laws as well. We have God God creates laws God creates the world God creates the laws of nature to bring order to the world God creates man to be in stewardship to the world God gives man free will. Man creates laws for society Free will gives man the opportunity to ignore society's laws. But none of us can ignore the laws of nature. If I were to have sex with a woman, due to the laws of nature, we have the ability to create a child. If a child were born, would that be the will of God? Yes but through the hierarchy of laws. It is not a direct connection. He did not force us to have sex. That was a result of free will. The biological impact of that was from God's creation of the laws of nature. To say that God creates people who are going to hell can be broadened out. Why did God create people to be born with heart defects? Why did God create people to be born with autism? Why did God create people to be born with cystic fibrosis? Why did God create people to be born with HIV? He didn't. Laws of nature with the gift of Free will are responsible for these outcomes. There is a distinction between creation and the permission to create. Let's give another example. Let's say I decide to go the roof of my office building and jump off. Most likely I would fall to my death. Did God create me to be suicidal? No. It was God's command that gravity works. It was my free will the created my suicide. We have to obey the laws of nature. The laws of nature are immovable. We also have to obey the laws of God. If we don't we may lose our salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 (edited) [quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:56 PM'] now lets say that the toothpicks have limited control of themselves. they can land pointing east/west or north/south. they have no choice of where they will land, who they will be next to, etc., but they have control of their direction when they come to rest. you still know what they will choose ahead of time, but does that mean you have control over everything? it's still their choice. [/quote] The problem with this is that regardless of this supposed free-will, it doesn't change the fact that you already know their decision. It doesn't matter if they have free will. Because you know the outcome already. The decision has already been decided. If you were to be born and be a serial killer. And god new you were going to be a killer. You could have free-will and possibly not be a killer right? But the problem is that god new even before your were born that you would be a killer. To say you have free will is to say god, was wrong about his knowing of you becomming a serial killer. In this example, god could make someone who he intended to do good in the world, but they turn to be the most evil person in the wolrd instead. Due to free-will. The burden of knowing the future is you know what that person is destined to become. To say they can alter that destiny spawns infinite amounts of futures that a person could have. So how could god determine the definite future of an event? Am I chasing my tale here? Edited April 9, 2005 by Melchisedec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 We do indeed have free will, which comes with the ability to choose evil. If we were created by God as beings incapable of evil, we would be mere puppets or robots, not free persons made in God's own image. God does not create anyone to be evil. The fact that He is aware of their choice of evil from all eternity does not change this fact. God exists outside time. He did not sit around and say, "Gee, I'll create Adolph Hitler, despite the fact I know he'll be evil." This is all beyond our limited human understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 9 2005, 01:28 PM'] cmotherofpirl, you are giving me answers without any explanation. you are just telling me how it is.....its like going up to an athiest and telling them that there is a god, and leaving it at that. [/quote] yes thats how it is and I am waiting for your response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 i totally agree with melchisedec......in ur example of the toothpicks the toothpicks were limited in the choices that they make. which means that in that case there free-will was limited. Do we choose when to be born or choose when to die? No, so our choices are also limited. My initial arguement was "why does god create those who he knows are going to hell". Lets take judas for example......jesus made the comment at the last summer, "it would be better if that person were never born" in regards to the man who was about to betray him. We all know that it was necessary for the events that happened to jesus to happen (to be sacrificed for our sins). But in judas' case jesus said it would have been better if he were never born. I take that as he is going to hell for what he did(or about to do). If i am wrong please correct me. So, God created judas knowing that he would betray his son Jesus. Even though this was necessary for jesus to fulfill his destiny.....why did judas have to suffer even though what he did was for the greater good(jesus dying for our sins)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 When our choices are limited how can one say we have free-will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Sooo..... The whole "Hierarchy of Laws" thing didn't quite float your boat Infinite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 9 2005, 04:32 PM'] We are overlooking a step in the creation process folks. Infinite's question may truly be "Do we have free will and God still know what we will do with it?" But the question posed is "Why does God create people who will be damned to Hell?" That's a different question. Not to say the whole fatalism v free will topic isn't one worthy of discussion but its not the one posed. So thanks to a few on the board, we seem to have an overall agreement about free will. We have it. But Infinite, to answer your question of "Why does God create people who will be damned to Hell?" You need to incorporate the hierarchy of laws as well. We have God God creates laws God creates the world God creates the laws of nature to bring order to the world God creates man to be in stewardship to the world God gives man free will. Man creates laws for society Free will gives man the opportunity to ignore society's laws. But none of us can ignore the laws of nature. If I were to have sex with a woman, due to the laws of nature, we have the ability to create a child. If a child were born, would that be the will of God? Yes but through the hierarchy of laws. It is not a direct connection. He did not force us to have sex. That was a result of free will. The biological impact of that was from God's creation of the laws of nature. To say that God creates people who are going to hell can be broadened out. Why did God create people to be born with heart defects? Why did God create people to be born with autism? Why did God create people to be born with cystic fibrosis? Why did God create people to be born with HIV? He didn't. Laws of nature with the gift of Free will are responsible for these outcomes. There is a distinction between creation and the permission to create. Let's give another example. Let's say I decide to go the roof of my office building and jump off. Most likely I would fall to my death. Did God create me to be suicidal? No. It was God's command that gravity works. It was my free will the created my suicide. We have to obey the laws of nature. The laws of nature are immovable. We also have to obey the laws of God. If we don't we may lose our salvation. [/quote] This is a great post.....I think that we need to see it again. Take the time to read it and take the time digest it.....it is phenominal stuff.... Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 A mystery is a thing that can be infinitely known but never FULLY understood by the human finite intellect.. keep that in mind. This would be a mystery. now consider that God created time and thus exists outside of time. God wasn't creating Judas in 6 B.C. thinking "this man will betray my Son". no, He dipped his fingers in the water of time and Judas was created, died, judged, and condemned (or in some lines of thinking saved out of some unrevealed repentence and in purgatory till the end of time) all in one instant from the non-temporal eternal perspective. But Judas is the one that swam through that time, making decisions with his God given free will. He went through TIME and decided to betray Jesus at one point in the TIME of his life, and then decided to kill himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 infinete and mel, you both are confusing free will and omnipotence. we are human and are limited. we have power over ourselves, and power over others. that means others have power over us. with the concpet of hierarchy, there is an ultimtate choice. where we spend eternity. the other choices are less important, and have less impact. a perfect judge knows and balances all mitigating circumstances, knows with perfect clarity what our real intent is, knows the exact limits of our knowledge. you think we are judged superficially. you think we are judged by human abilities which brings human limits. the fact of creation, with the most reasonable explanation of directed intent, points to a gi-normous (i like that word) or inconceivable intelligence that can judge us perfectly. The higher power with cognizance that can cause and direct creation, that established the incredible order of existence, is God. The real question is not if God can judge our Ultimate Free Will Choice perfectly, but why does He bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 9 2005, 10:45 PM'] When our choices are limited how can one say we have free-will? [/quote] Because even though it is limited you still have a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 9 2005, 04:32 PM'] We are overlooking a step in the creation process folks. Infinite's question may truly be "Do we have free will and God still know what we will do with it?" But the question posed is "Why does God create people who will be damned to Hell?" That's a different question. Not to say the whole fatalism v free will topic isn't one worthy of discussion but its not the one posed. So thanks to a few on the board, we seem to have an overall agreement about free will. We have it. But Infinite, to answer your question of "Why does God create people who will be damned to Hell?" You need to incorporate the hierarchy of laws as well. We have God God creates laws God creates the world God creates the laws of nature to bring order to the world God creates man to be in stewardship to the world God gives man free will. Man creates laws for society Free will gives man the opportunity to ignore society's laws. But none of us can ignore the laws of nature. If I were to have sex with a woman, due to the laws of nature, we have the ability to create a child. If a child were born, would that be the will of God? Yes but through the hierarchy of laws. It is not a direct connection. He did not force us to have sex. That was a result of free will. The biological impact of that was from God's creation of the laws of nature. To say that God creates people who are going to hell can be broadened out. Why did God create people to be born with heart defects? Why did God create people to be born with autism? Why did God create people to be born with cystic fibrosis? Why did God create people to be born with HIV? He didn't. Laws of nature with the gift of Free will are responsible for these outcomes. There is a distinction between creation and the permission to create. Let's give another example. Let's say I decide to go the roof of my office building and jump off. Most likely I would fall to my death. Did God create me to be suicidal? No. It was God's command that gravity works. It was my free will the created my suicide. We have to obey the laws of nature. The laws of nature are immovable. We also have to obey the laws of God. If we don't we may lose our salvation. [/quote] How does this relate to someone becomming an atheist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Apr 9 2005, 10:23 PM'] A mystery is a thing that can be infinitely known but never FULLY understood by the human finite intellect.. keep that in mind. This would be a mystery. now consider that God created time and thus exists outside of time. God wasn't creating Judas in 6 B.C. thinking "this man will betray my Son". no, He dipped his fingers in the water of time and Judas was created, died, judged, and condemned (or in some lines of thinking saved out of some unrevealed repentence and in purgatory till the end of time) all in one instant from the non-temporal eternal perspective. But Judas is the one that swam through that time, making decisions with his God given free will. He went through TIME and decided to betray Jesus at one point in the TIME of his life, and then decided to kill himself. [/quote] Going on that, is it possible that once we are born, like you said, we swim through the waters of time, but basically, God knows what will happen to us, or rather, what has already happened to us, at the end of our lives, and isnt so concerned with knowing what we are doing now? Erm, now that i see that, thats not really how i meant it.. but whatever. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='Apr 10 2005, 12:02 PM'] Going on that, is it possible that once we are born, like you said, we swim through the waters of time, but basically, God knows what will happen to us, or rather, what has already happened to us, at the end of our lives, and isnt so concerned with knowing what we are doing now? Erm, now that i see that, thats not really how i meant it.. but whatever. Thoughts? [/quote] Along the lines of my question that no one answered. Free will allows an infinite number of outcomes for our lives. How does god know which outcome out of infinity is our definite fate? If he knows what the future holds for me, how can I have free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 10 2005, 12:06 PM'] Along the lines of my question that no one answered. Free will allows an infinite number of outcomes for our lives. How does god know which outcome out of infinity is our definite fate? If he knows what the future holds for me, how can I have free will? [/quote] Hmm. Considering that God is outside time, could it be that he both sees us as we are now and sees everything going on at the end of our life as well? Example - he sees me kill someone. He also see's how that affects my salvation at the same time. So its not that he knows what will happen in the sense that he just knows it but rather he sees our whole life and how it changes as we choose, so in the begining he saw us as we are now, and as we will be, and he sees the final outcomes of everything, so he knows what will finally happen to us in that way.. Erm.. that was confusing. Does anyone understand what i mean and can explain it better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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