why did god create the damned?

[infinitelord1]

God.... we see him as all knowing, all powerful, and a loving god. Why would a loving god who is compassionate....create a being (person) who is doomed to hell? Us as human beings....do we create things to fail. The answer to that would be no. We create things to perform a specific function. If it does not preform that specific function then we discard it. After that we start on a new idea. Is that what God does. Well, i dont think so. We are all created differently. There are people with brown, blonde, red hair. There are smart, slow, and retarded people. There are tall, short, and midget people. There are attractive, average, and ugly people. Did god have compassion for all these people? The point is we are all different (whatever the reason may be). I know there is some kinda answer for the question that really bothers me. I dont know if i will believe it....i dont know if i will know it. Do we know anything? I dont think so.....isnt that what faith is for? Why did god create those who he knew would ultimately go to hell? Did he not have compassion for them? I think I am going to hell....why did he create me? You can give me any answer for this....The challenge is....will it convince me?

[point5]

hey this is my friend...I had him come post here...because I thought the scholars here could help him in seeking truth far better than I can...I will chime in too. Thanks for any help

-Kiel

[Lil Red]

God doesn't create anyone with the intention that they will go to hell...every one person makes the conscious choice to turn away from God and His graces, or to turn toward God and His graces...

God gave us free will, we make the choice everyday to love Him or not to love Him.

Edited April 9, 2005 by Lil Red

[infinitelord1]

i know all about free will and choices....but the fact is that before we experience any of these....god knows where we will go.....heaven or hell......those who are unfortunate and unhappy in life will probably end up in hell.....its hard for me to see why god created them.

[MichaelFilo]

Well, God created Lucifer, knowing ultimatly that Lucifer would rise up against God Himself. HE created Lucifer because of love. God IS love, and His creations are expressions of His Love. God created all mankind because of His Divine Love. He had His only Son crucified because "God so loved the world" (John 3:16). God created mankind with the intent of having them forever live in His Grace, but knowing that Love makes no sense without willingness from both ends to love, He gave humanity the freedom to love Him, or to reject Him. God created no one to be damned, but everyone is created to be saved. God's Will is for the whole world to convert and repent, and come back to the Divine. Thinking you are going to hell is a failure to accept Jesus as the Savior of mankind.

However, why would God create anyone knowing they are going to make the choices which will lead them to damnation? Because then He would violate the free-will He has granted us. You see, God knows very well what will happen to each man, but he creates all men that they maybe saved. So he creates men not on the premise that they will accept Him or reject Him, but on the same premise he created Adam, that the man should be an expression of God's boundless Love. What we do in response to God's Love, God knows, but he doesn't create us because of what we will do, or then He would be creating 9and therefore expressing His love) only to His friends, not His enemies, which would contradict the very command from Our Lord Jesus Christ to "love our enemies".

God bless,
Mikey

[cmotherofpirl]

God made us and so radically loves us that He gave us free will so that we could decide if we wanted to love Him back.
If he only chose to make people who obeyed Him He would have created a race of robots, not humans.

Without free will there is no possibility of love, only compulsion.

[Cam42]

God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven.

When man does not do this, due to sin, concupiecence, or what have you he must be redeemed. This is manifest in the Sin of Adam. God did not intend man to sin. But we do, because in order for the above statement as to the making of man, it must be a free choice.

To save our souls, we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our heart.

When we fail to do this, we do not comply with what God wants for us.

I believe that you are talking about pre-desitination. We, as Catholics don't believe in pre-destinitation in the manner that you are speaking. While God knows what is in our heart of hearts, He does not intend nor does he create us with the intent that we are going to fail him and fail the attainment of heaven.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us:
[quote]To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness. (CCC 600)[/quote]

and

[quote]"He has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ . . . to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will." We ask insistently for this loving plan to be fully realized on earth as it is already in heaven. (CCC 2823)[/quote]

Our pre-destination does not exist in the form in which you are thinking. It exists insofar are in His image and likeness. This however, doesn't mean that we cannot turn our back on the destiny of the redemptive action of Christ.

The key is that insofar as we share in the life of Christ, we are destined to heaven, if we, by free will, accept and conform our wills and lives to that of the salvific action of Jesus Christ and his Church.

I am sure that this will garner more questions, but it is a start.

Cam

[Guest Eremite]

God created those souls he knew would reject him in order to show forth his Justice. St. Paul calls them "vessels of wrath".

[Catalyst]

what if I said that people choose to go to hell? Think of free will? What is Gods will? What has He done to see it come to pass?

[infinitelord1]

first if all, i appreciate all of these wonderful answers to my question. Second of all i recognize that we have free will. Third, god didnt give us free will because.... it just always existed......satan must have had free will to make the choice of gaining his own throne in hell (which happened before the universe was created). Since god is all knowing and all powerful......he allowed pain......yet he could have prevented it before he had to create the universe. He could have prevented st. lucifer from making the mistake he did. What would the result be then? Well love would be the only thing in existence. I think god knows that i and many others would trade our current lives for that. I would have traded my birth for that. I wouldnt have made the same decision as st. lucifer (to split from god). That would be my choice, but i guess of all the choices that we have.....that is one we cant make. So do we truly have 100% free will?

[cmotherofpirl]

God did give us free will or we wouldn't have it.
Yes Satan had free will.

If God had not given us free will we would have been robots, because we would have no choices.
Would you be a robot??

Free will makes love possible.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 9 2005, 11:00 AM'] first if all, i appreciate all of these wonderful answers to my question. Second of all i recognize that we have free will. Third, god didnt give us free will because.... it just always existed......satan must have had free will to make the choice of gaining his own throne in hell (which happened before the universe was created). Since god is all knowing and all powerful......he allowed pain......yet he could have prevented it before he had to create the universe. He could have prevented st. lucifer from making the mistake he did. What would the result be then? Well love would be the only thing in existence. I think god knows that i and many others would trade our current lives for that. I would have traded my birth for that. I wouldnt have made the same decision as st. lucifer (to split from god). That would be my choice, but i guess of all the choices that we have.....that is one we cant make. So do we truly have 100% free will? [/quote]
True. God knows our fate even before we are here. He knows the future and everything that will happen. So regardless of free will, he knows that someone is going to be born a believer or a non-believer. Its almost like the babies born to the canaanites. God new that these babies would be killed by the jews, yet he chose to bring them into the world. He new the babies would be born to a people who would meet a bloody end, and I often wonder how did the babies have freewill or even a chance at all.

[infinitelord1]

cmotherofpirl,

you are giving me answers without any explanation. you are just telling me how it is.....its like going up to an athiest and telling them that there is a god, and leaving it at that.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Apr 9 2005, 10:18 AM'] God created those souls he knew would reject him in order to show forth his Justice. St. Paul calls them "vessels of wrath". [/quote]
That contradicts free will. How can he make someone he knows would reject them, and they still have free-will? Considering he made them for the exclusive purpose of being the symbols of his justice(wrath).

Edited April 9, 2005 by Melchisedec

[jasJis]

infinite,
back off from the religious side of it and look at it from a metaphysical point of view.
free will exists because we see that people make choices. we also see that people force their choices on others. your question is if free choice exists fro everyone.

let's say you're as smart as god, but not as powerful. let's say you make up a box of toothpicks. if you threw a handful of toothpicks into the air three times and knew where each one of them would fall every time, does that make you all powerfull, or just all knowing? yes, there are limits. if you do this in your kitchen, they aren't going to land in the mailbox outside.

now lets say that the toothpicks have limited control of themselves. they can land pointing east/west or north/south. they have no choice of where they will land, who they will be next to, etc., but they have control of their direction when they come to rest. you still know what they will choose ahead of time, but does that mean you have control over everything? it's still their choice.

now tell the toothpicks that the e/w ones will go back in the box, and the n/s ones will be burned. the toothpicks still can choose. they can base their decsion and choice on how much they want to land near certain tooth picks. maybe some don't want to bounce of the counter or land in the grout of the tile floor. maybe they don't know how being back in the box is any better than being burned.

we have free will to decide our final resting place. there are environmental experiences that may influence our choices. there is a certain amount of ignorance that hinders us sometimes from choosing wisely. the choice will be made. if we refuse to influence ourselves and let circumstances make the choice, we ultimately made our choice to not use our free will. if we choose to land a certain way, we will, no matter what. we may not be able to choose environmental circumstances and we may thing ending up e/w and being burned is no big deal. that's where reason comes in.

God allows evil because He allows us real choices with real consequences. just as we can inflict evil on others, we can inflect good on others. if we don't believe in existence beyond this life, it doesn't matter. if we accept the possibility of existence beyond this life (which is the most reasonable choice) then our final orientation does matter and our small influences on ourselves and others are as important and meaningful.