Downloading Music

[Paladin D]

Of course, does it depend on the situation?

Situation A) Someone downloads full albums from the net, without paying. Too lazy to buy the CD. = Sin?

Situation B) Someone downloads full albums from the net, without paying. Will buy CD later. = Still Sin?

Situation C) Someone who downloads a few songs from a band, but doesn't like most of the songs the band plays. So why buy the CD? = Sin?

Situation D) Someone who downloads a few songs from a band, but plans on buying the CD ASAP. = Still Sin?

Situation E) Someone downloads 1 or 2 songs from a specific group, not big fans of the group and doesn't like most of their songs, and will not buy CD. = Sin?

Situation F) Someone downloads a song (or songs) that are rare (or very rare) to find for purchase. But he/she wouldn't mind purchasing it if he/she found it. = Sin?

Situation G) Someone downloads a song or theme, that is not sold on CD. Or does not know is sold on CD, since it's a rare clip. = Sin?

There are just so many situations, it's hard (well for me) at times to understand if it's really stealing or not. Of course Situation A would be a definate sin (from my understanding). Reason why most people download songs from the net, is to get a "preview" of the album, or to temporarly enjoy it till he/she gets the cash to buy it.

Plus, studies have shown (don't have any sources, sorry), that those who download music from the net, are more likely to purchase the CD later, than those who don't download music from the net.

What is the Church's stand on this?

EDIT NOTE: Before I knew this was a sin, I downloaded a few albums (but I currently own the CDs for them). So I don't download full albums, just a couple songs once in a while.

Edited November 5, 2003 by Paladin D

[M.SIGGA]

:unsure: :unsure:

[geetarplayer]

Of course, does it depend on the situation?

Situation A) Someone downloads full albums from the net, without paying.  Too lazy to buy the CD.  = Sin?

Situation B) Someone downloads full albums from the net, without paying.  Will buy CD later.  = Still Sin?

Situation C) Someone who downloads a few songs from a band, but doesn't like most of the songs the band plays.  So why buy the CD? = Sin?

Situation D) Someone who downloads a few songs from a band, but plans on buying the CD ASAP. = Still Sin?

Situation E) Someone downloads 1 or 2 songs from a specific group, not big fans of the group and doesn't like most of their songs, and will not buy CD. = Sin?

Situation F) Someone downloads a song (or songs) that are rare (or very rare) to find for purchase.  But he/she wouldn't mind purchasing it if he/she found it. = Sin?

Situation G) Someone downloads a song or theme, that is not sold on CD.  Or does not know is sold on CD, since it's a rare clip. = Sin?

There are just so many situations, it's hard (well for me) at times to understand if it's really stealing or not.  Of course Situation A would be a definate sin (from my understanding).  Reason why most people download songs from the net, is to get a "preview" of the album, or to temporarly enjoy it till he/she gets the cash to buy it.

Plus, studies have shown (don't have any sources, sorry), that those who download music from the net, are more likely to purchase the CD later, than those who don't download music from the net.

What is the Church's stand on this?

EDIT NOTE: Before I knew this was a sin, I downloaded a few albums (but I currently own the CDs for them).  So I don't download full albums, just a couple songs once in a while.

Some people have no other form of getting their music out there than putting it in free mp3 form online. In this case it's perfectly fine to download their music because they want you to hear it, even if that means for free. If someone's music is on a CD already but being put in mp3 form by someone else to download for free, that is not perfectly fine, even if you plan on buying the CD later. It all has to do with copyrights.

-Mark

[Norseman82]

The main principle is this: are you supposed to be paying for what you download? Check what the terms of download are. If you violate it and keep something without paying what you were supposed to for it, then it is a sin of theft.

[Paladin D]

Thanks guys.

Again, I rarely download music anymore. When I do, it's usually oddball stuff that is hard to find (or not on CD), or a song I heard on the radio, to listen for a time.

Is the 2nd part a sin?

Edited November 5, 2003 by Paladin D

[CatholicAndFanatical]

hmm, this affects me big time..

is downloading things a sin?

good question..what if you cant afford it? Or what if you only like one song from a cd, why spend 12 bucks when you can just download one song and be happy with it.

is it just music? What about software you download using Emule or Kazaa?

I"ll be the first to admit if it wasnt for my first copy of Visual Studio 5 from Microsoft (a $1600 value) I wouldnt be a programmer today. I didnt buy it, I couldnt, it was $1600 bucks. Companies like Microsoft dont price their products for the individual like myself, they price it for the big corporations that can afford the licenses...so am I sinning when I download software that are to expensive for me to buy because the prices are outrageous? What if I needed that software in order to stay up on my development so I can keep my jobs?

Nice call on this thread, i've been wondering this too. Although I havent confessed any of it, should i??

[Aloysius]

hmmm it appears an alalogy for C & F's position would be stealing bread to feed his starving family... or something along those lines...

im pretty sure the Church teaches that the ends don't justify the means? correct me if i'm wrong. so i guess it would still be a sin ... srry dude.

but still, i'm not exactly sure.

anyway, i've heard ppl argue that since u can share one CD with one friend for them to copy, having em on the internet is just sharing it with thousands of friends.

i came up with an analogy. it's legal for you to lend out ur CD to a friend for free, but it's not legal for you to open a store, put all kinds of copyrighted music in it with burning machines, and put a sign out "burn CD's for free"

anyway, theft is theft...

if it's not on a CD, i still think one should check copyright rights to it and make sure. even if it's not available, if someone has it copyrighted, obtaining it without money going to the one with the copyright would still be theft i think.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

DOH!

[Theologian in Training]

Before I entered the seminary, I wasn't exactly the perfect Christian. In fact, one of the reasons I know so much about computers now is due to learning certain methods of gettings things I wanted on the internet. If you look hard enough, you can find anything, and I do mean anything.

Keeping that in mind, I made the moral decision, after a very strong conversion experience, and constantly hearing in my head, "I have no love for half-hearted men" to destroy and delete all programs, CD's, music, files, software, television shows, and anything else I obtained illegally. Therefore, now I cannot in good conscience take a CD from someone who burned a copy for me, nor can I, in good conscience, knowingly lend certain CD's knowing they will be burned.

If you think it was an easy decision for me to make, and one that I gladly did, you are sorely mistaken. It was only after confessing this that the priest asked me what I was afraid of. He told me I was able to respond to God's grace enough to reorient my life to such a degree, and yet still hold on to all this stuff. I told him the only way I would be able to destroy anything, would be if he gave it to me as a penance, which he did.

Admittedly, it is hard, especially since many companies make burning and copyright infringements easier than when I used to do it. Yet, now I buy every CD I own, will not accept burned CD's, and if given one will destroy it, as well as buy every DVD, television show, program, etc. that I own.

I think the strongest temptation that faces me sometimes is the attitude that everyone else takes, your not hurting anyone, one song won't make a difference, and since you can't find what your looking for anywhere else, and Kazaa or the like have it, might as well just get it.

I am not saying this to pat myself on the back or applaud myself in my decision, rather, I thought I would offer my own insights on this in light of my own experience.

What it comes down to, is that regardless of what it is you are downloading, if you are not to be downloading it, despite its price, it is stealing. Someone put a lot of time and effort into that song, that movie, that show, or sat at a computer for many months to years on end coding this or that program. Granted, it is not always completely black and white, especially in light of all the new technology that further blurs the line, but stealing is stealing, and regardless of how you try to justify it, if you know it is stealing, and are more concerned about justifyin it because it is gnawing at you, then you know something isn't right. Remember, God gave us a conscience and He also put His law in our heart, as Jeremiah attests to, we know when something is morally right or wrong, despite our own reason and justification.

Just my .02

God Bless

[Norseman82]

good question..what if you cant afford it?

Ask yourself this: what do we normally do if we want something but can't afford it, like a Lincoln Navigator or the new ZX-10R or R1?

Although I havent confessed any of it, should i??

To be safe, I certainly would, if anything for the peace of my conscience.

BTW - saw in your profile that you live in Indiana. What part of Indiana do you live in?

Edited November 5, 2003 by Norseman82

[Theologian in Training]

Now to deal with specifics:

Situation A) Someone downloads full albums from the net, without paying. Too lazy to buy the CD. = Sin?

Is this not stealing?

Situation B) Someone downloads full albums from the net, without paying. Will buy CD later. = Still Sin?

Why bother? You aleady have the entire CD. You no longer have any incentive to buy the CD. Why pay money for something you already have gotten for free?

Situation C) Someone who downloads a few songs from a band, but doesn't like most of the songs the band plays. So why buy the CD? = Sin?

What does this matter though? If you don't like all the songs by the artist, then shouldn't you give them their due for the few that you do like? You could buy the songs for $.99 a piece here: Itunes but I personally think that is too much for one song.

Situation D) Someone who downloads a few songs from a band, but plans on buying the CD ASAP. = Still Sin?

This sounds like situation B, and the same question remains...why bother?

Situation E) Someone downloads 1 or 2 songs from a specific group, not big fans of the group and doesn't like most of their songs, and will not buy CD. = Sin?

This seems to be repeating situation C and the same answer applies for this case as well.

Situation F) Someone downloads a song (or songs) that are rare (or very rare) to find for purchase. But he/she wouldn't mind purchasing it if he/she found it. = Sin?

Whether it is rare of easily accessible really should have no bearing on whether or not you will download that song. I suggest you take a look at the RIAA's FAQ:

RIAA

Situation G) Someone downloads a song or theme, that is not sold on CD. Or does not know is sold on CD, since it's a rare clip. = Sin?

This also seems to sound like situation F, which has pretty much the same answer.

Remember this is merely based on my own research and "biases," hope it helps.

God Bless

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Hey Norse, im from Kokomo, about 60 miles north of indy.

I understand what your saying, and thank God tonights confession, im going and I will confess it, but its a very difficult thing to give up, its even hitting harder than most things ive given up..yikes.

especially since new stuff is coming out that, as a developer, would be able to create some amesome stuff with it, but my company is too cheap to buy it so im out of luck there.

it is kinda like "Steal the bread to feed my hungry family" type of thing, not that drastic mind you. But a new technology just came out called Visual Studio .Net, actually its been out since the beginning of this year..but I would need to learn this new language in order to stay on top of my game.

Ok, my point? Well first off im not justifying it, its a sin, i will confess it and fervently try not to do this again. Secondly, if I was to leave this job, which I want to because im limited here, and go work for a company that desires candidates with the latest and greatest experience, which I wouldnt have hadnt it been for me downloading Visual Studio .Net, then i would be left out in the cold until I can get with an old company that is behind times and hope and pray THEY buy me the software I need to learn so I can move up. 9 Times out of 10 this never happens. Its not Cost Justifiable.

See in this business you have to have the experience before they hire you. Kinda like the egg and the chicken debate. what comes first..you have to have experience, well how do I get that, you need to work some place to get that experience, well will you hire me? No. Why not? Because your not experienced..

And College wasnt the answer, I know..not only did I go to College I taught computer class's there as well. The programming class's there are a complete joke, nothing is DOS based anymore, everything is Visual. If you took the C++ Class's in College, you cant go out and get a C++ job, why? Because the things you learn in school are only the very very very basic foundation of programming..its not the real world and you can only use the 'theory' that you gained in those class's in the real world. Most people like myself learn everything at home, experimenting.

thats where im coming from. Again, I hear what you are all saying and I agree. I've been pondering this notion for the longest time only to justify it in the end.

sorry for the long post..hard to explain myself here

Thanks for the insight though everyone. At least I know now that it is a sin.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I have downloaded songs before but I don't think it is sinful in every circumstance. For instance, I download music I wouldn't ever buy on a CD anyway. The artist is not losing money because I wouldn't have paid for it anyway. Most of the time, if I like a song that I downloaded, I will buy the CD. I also download songs from CDs that I have because I am too lazy to put the CD in my computer when I want to hear it. Free music becomes sinful when you make CDs for profit from downloaded MP3s, in my opinion.

[Paladin D]

Thanks Theologian (and everyone else as well).

I just deleted music and video and such that I've downloaded illegally. Of course, I deleted most of it before creating this topic, but there was still some left.

Two last questions:

1) Music files such as Remix and Techno pieces, most of them are done by fans and are easily downloadable for free. For example, Star Wars remix or techno music, done by fans. They wouldn't be able to sell it, since it'd be illegal for them to do so (including fan films), of course this wouldn't be a sin to download them right? Afterall, the creators make it for the purpose to have fun and are forced to give it off for FREE anyways.

2) How about downloading episodes of a show? If the particular show was avaliable for VHS or DvD, it would be illegal right? What if it wasn't?

[Paladin D]

DOH!

Yeah I know, I also own an expensive (not as expensive, but near $1000) program that I downloaded illegally. I'll have to delete it ASAP.