Francis Arinze

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Apr 17 2005, 07:24 PM'] haha. I am also enthused by Arinze's bluntness. When I saw him on EWTN, I couldn't help but think about him as Pope, laying the smack down without mincing words. (Not that John Paul II was a pushover; but he did have a different personality). [/quote]
Yeah, well, you know...a bishop's staff has a crook to gather in the lambs, but it also has a point to prod them along and push them back into the fold.

I think God intended for John Paul the Great to work on pulling them in. I think it may be His plan now to start the punishments for those who haven't come back yet...start poking and proding and hopefully they will come back into the folds, but it may be the time chosen by God to shift the dissenters away from the faithful.

[timsj]

[quote name='Myles' date='Apr 17 2005, 06:12 PM'] Where do the magisterial documents of the Church say we should remove altar rails? [/quote]
I think my point was there was never any magisterial document in the first place that says altar rails are necessary in a church.... Arinze as prefect of the congregation would of course know that, hence it being faintly ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong I have neither strong feelings for against having altar rails, but having spent the last two summers helping to build missions in India, I am well aware that many new churches would not see the installation of altar rails as a priority! Something that Arinze will be all to acutely aware of ... and what I object to is the undertone that having altar rails or not is sign of orthodoxy. Maybe I misinterpreted the undertone.

Hope that explains my post a bit more.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]Something that Arinze will be all to acutely aware of ... and what I object to is the undertone that having altar rails or not is sign of orthodoxy. Maybe I misinterpreted the undertone.[/quote]

I would say you misinterpreted and thus there is nothing for you to 'object to' From my experience of phatmass.com when people here have something to say they say it the kind of tone associated with Cardinal Arinze. Phatmassers employ no smokescreens dude they just go ahead and say it.

I think the general feeling is not that the abscence of altar rails is not evidence of heterodoxy but that in many places it has become so because the rails have been forcibly removed as part of post-conciliar 'remodelling', much of which was carried out in the name of Vatican II without any concrete backing from the Council or the post-conciliar magisterial documents.

Some of the 'modernisation' of older parish churches that was carried out in the pseudo 'spirit of Vatican II' borders on iconoclastic and since that work was, in many cases, carried out by unorthodox clerics it gets associated with a certain level of Catholicity.

I am non-partisan, whether or not there is or is not an altar rail, I kneel to recieve communion so it makes no difference to me. However, art and architecture arise out of the soul of man. Human beings were communicating by pictures before we could speak properly and the effort men make in their ecclesiastical art often reflects an outpouring of religious fervour and feeling and the altar rail was no exception.

I'll assume you know that the whole kneeling to recieve communion was the 16th century Catholic's way of affirming his believe in the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ being present in the Blessed Sacrament and altar rails are all part of that lived theology. In a climate of coolness towards the real prescence, particularly in the West, naturally the removal of altar rails--which were traditionally an extension of affirming believe in Transubstantiation--causes many to feel a little upset.

Assuming that 'SJ' means Society of Jesus I laud you Tim for having the bravery to take up that charism of St Ignatius in pledging your obidience to the Pope and going wherever he tells you. I hope your mission work was a success. Yet, I would ask also that you employ the Jesuit sense for pastoral care and show empathy to the phatmassers also. Please, prior to making assumptions, consider the emotions and sensibilities of the people you are speaking to and try to grasp why it is they might be reacting as they are before you move to make statements about their motivations.

Sincerely
Myles

PS) My own parish church does not have altar rails and the parish priest is unquestionably orthodox

Edited April 18, 2005 by Myles

[dUSt]

[quote name='timsj' date='Apr 17 2005, 05:37 PM'] "The church never said to remove the altar rails... If anyone can find me something where the church said to remove the altar rails I will give him a reward."

I'm not sure he did say this.... as it is faintly ridiculous.

When the church reformed the liturgy in Vatican II, the guidlines issued where a little important than the importance of altar rails.... which of course where not present in all churches anyway!

this is the danger of us all projecting our own agendas and putting words into the Cardinals mouths..... May I be as bold as to suggest a bit of caution. [/quote]
Putting words into a Cardinal's mouth? Faintly ridiculous? The former is an accusation against me and the latter is a direct criticism of the Cardinal.

If you take the time to watch the videos posted earlier in this thread, you will see with your own eyes this [b]exact[/b] quote coming from Cardinal Arinze's mouth.

[timsj]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 18 2005, 10:43 AM'] Putting words into a Cardinal's mouth? Faintly ridiculous? The former is an accusation against me and the latter is a direct criticism of the Cardinal.

If you take the time to watch the videos posted earlier in this thread, you will see with your own eyes this [b]exact[/b] quote coming from Cardinal Arinze's mouth. [/quote]
You are right I havent seen the video... and i do apologise....

I take both accusations back and will attempt to better informed next time.

It does suprise me though, I am very interested to see what will happen if Arinze is elevated. I think his background will have a huge impact on the world and his charisma is worth its weight in gold. I had heard that his real passion was his time in charge of Inter-religious dialogue, and that he was particularly comfortable in the liturgy role.

I still maintain that as everyone has their own agenda it is very dangerous to put word in 'cardinals' mouth.... I am sorry that I falsely accused you of that!