Nicole8223 Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 [quote]Musical instruments which by common acception, and use are suitable only for secular music must be entirely excluded from all liturgical functions, and private devotions. (DMS no. 70) [/quote] But they make no distinction. As I read this, I take this to mean drums, eectric guitars, bass...but not an acoustic guitar. As a matter of fact, in the secular world, I saw very few acoustic guitars, but almost all electric guitars. I relate the acoustic guitar to religious music. that is the only place I have seen it, besides maybe some old coutny song.s Sure, you can find them if you look for them in the seculr world, but I wouldn't say by any means that they are only used for secular music. There is no specific distinction. There is no mention of the guitar, or of any other insturments...much of this IS left to the interpretation of the reader. Cam, you and I have read the same thing and taken it totally differently. How can we say I am right and you are wrong...perhaps we just disagree and leave it at that. On another note, thank you for clearing up for me the reason why the organ is the appropriate instrument for the cathedral. it makes more sense now...I was scared I was switching to the dark side...LOL. Just kidding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Florence Chapel?? How many Tommies are on this site anyway? You guys should have seen the Florence chapel back in the 80s. It was like playing mass in a rumpus room. They used to have music for all the daily masses. Don't get Camster wrong, just because he's sidestepping my argument to get more folks in the debate (or is it out of fear ) we like to butt heads pretty hard over this issue. And Cam's correct on the endowments. You'd be surprised how many people are organ donors. Organ donors... Get it? (crickets chirping) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 oh man...this has gone down hill....LOL hot stuff, you crack me up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 [quote]As a matter of fact, in the secular world, I saw very few acoustic guitars, but almost all electric guitars. I relate the acoustic guitar to religious music. that is the only place I have seen it, besides maybe some old coutny song.s Sure, you can find them if you look for them in the seculr world, but I wouldn't say by any means that they are only used for secular music.[/quote] Bob Dylan CNSY James Taylor Cat Stevens Don McLean Poison Jackson Browne Dion John Mayer Uncle Kracker Josh Kelly Kid Rock So, we can go back 40 years or we can get to yesterday. The acoustic guitar is more represented with secular music. Several months ago, I did a non-scientific poll at my local Starbucks. But I think that it speaks to your point: I asked 10 people, “When I say ‘guitar,’ what do you think? The answers, in no particular order.....2 Jimi Hendrix, 1 Metallica, 2 John Denver, 3 Rock ‘n Roll, 1 acoustic, 1 electric. I then asked the same 10 people, “When I say ‘organ,’ what do you think? The answers in no particular order....8 church, 1 baseball park, 1 heart. (I think he was stoned, he also was one of the Jimi Hendrix answers.) Things that make you go Hmmmm....... Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloha918 Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 13 2005, 09:20 AM'] Organ donors... Get it? (crickets chirping) [/quote] lame....but i love it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Ok, Cam, I do se your oint here. And to behonest, I'm only 22, and I am not well-versred in scripture or Church Teaching (yet ), but I was hoping someone who is could come and post things in response to you. I do believe in my heart that guitar IS appropriate in Mass, at certain times and places, but I have nothing to support me, and you have a lot to support you. What does all this mean? I don't know....It means I have some more thinking to do, I guess! If anyone can go at this better than me, go for it! Cam's too good for me...!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloha918 Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 13 2005, 09:33 AM'] Bob Dylan CNSY James Taylor Cat Stevens Don McLean Poison Jackson Browne Dion John Mayer Uncle Kracker Josh Kelly Kid Rock So, we can go back 40 years or we can get to yesterday. The acoustic guitar is more represented with secular music. Several months ago, I did a non-scientific poll at my local Starbucks. But I think that it speaks to your point: I asked 10 people, “When I say ‘guitar,’ what do you think? The answers, in no particular order.....2 Jimi Hendrix, 1 Metallica, 2 John Denver, 3 Rock ‘n Roll, 1 acoustic, 1 electric. I then asked the same 10 people, “When I say ‘organ,’ what do you think? The answers in no particular order....8 church, 1 baseball park, 1 heart. (I think he was stoned, he also was one of the Jimi Hendrix answers.) Things that make you go Hmmmm....... Cam [/quote] i would say that the acoustic guitar is in the secualr world......but not nearly as much as the electric...... the guitar is a secualr instrument.......but i seen secular bands use organs..... does this mean that anytime a secular band uses an instrument it then becomes "not sacred"?....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Nicole don't you go anywhere girl!! I won't let Camster bully you ( I say that lightly). Yes Cam is very knowledgeable but don't sell yourself short. Cam and I have just scratched the surface of this thing. Like he said, he and I have been arguing this one for years. I still have a few tricks up my sleeve. We guitarists need to stick together. Stick around and we'll have some fun! And if comes down to it. I'll hold him down and you can tickle him until he submits!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 [quote]does this mean that anytime a secular band uses an instrument it then becomes "not sacred"?....... [/quote] No, but if you read DMS, specifically, no. 60 (b). [quote]The difference between sacred, and secular music must be taken into consideration. Some musical instruments, such as the classic organ, are naturally appropriate for sacred music; others, such as string instruments which are played with a bow, are easily adapted to liturgical use. But there are some instruments which, by common estimation, are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use.[/quote] The guitar falls in that category. How? I just gave 12 examples....I can give more. Incidentally, I find it interesting that during the 60s and 70s Dion and Cat Stevens were sung at Mass.....disturbing isn't it? And how is it that it is ok to play Faith Hill and Josh Groban during wedding Masses? Did someone say something about the common invading the sacred???? Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 [quote]The guitar falls in that category. How? I just gave 12 examples....I can give more. Incidentally, I find it interesting that during the 60s and 70s Dion and Cat Stevens were sung at Mass.....disturbing isn't it? And how is it that it is ok to play Faith Hill and Josh Groban during wedding Masses?[/quote] Do not jump topics Camster. (And btw it is perfectly acceptable to play secular music at the prelude, postlude, unity candle and post eucharistic meditation.) We are not talking about secular music. We are talking about guitars playing liturgical music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 I'm not jumping Himester....I don't agree with the use of secular music in the Liturgy....period. Prelude/Postlude are fine....that is not Liturgical, it is para-liturgical. Notice that everything that I have said thus far includes reference to the guitar not being acceptable and/or support of said position. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 The unity candle and the post eucharistic meditation are not part of either the liturgy of the Word or the liturgy of the Eucharist. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it violates the rubrics of the Mass. Secular music at the unity candle does not make the mass illicit or invalid. And the topic is guitars, not secular music in the Mass. You and I see pretty much eye to eye on that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 I know we see eye to eye on secular music.....you and both love the same kinda music...always have. That is finished. However, I still stand by DMS no. 60 (b). And when I listed the secular singers, I was offering support to the secluarism and humanism of the guitar. It is, by common estimation, are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use. That is my point. The Church is clear. I have given examples to that. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 [quote]That is my point. The Church is clear. I have given examples to that.[/quote] I don't have any clarity. I don't think the church is clear. I mean, I haven't seen once anything that says, "Do not use an acoustic guitar in Mass." I have seen statements that could conform to that idea if you wish to perceive them that way, but I have not seen any clear statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 [quote]"Do not use an acoustic guitar in Mass."[/quote] [quote]But there are some instruments which, by common estimation, are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use. (DMS no. 60 (b))[/quote] The guitar falls into this category. While not explicitly stated....evidence presented leads to that conclusion. Then again, many of the teachings of the Church are implicit and not explicit. As I said earlier, the impotice isn't on me to prove that the guitar is or is not acceptable. I have shown what is to be seen as acceptable, in the Church's eyes....that much is clear. Let me lay it out this way: 1. Gregorian Chant 2. Organ 3. Other bowed instrumentation I don't see anything saying anything about guitars, but I see it saying a whole lot about the things I have been talking about. So, show me how the guitar can be subsituted licitly and I will change my tune. And why is it that we don't promote Gregorian Chant again? Isn't that explicit? It is. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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