Jaime Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 As long as we're going to just have instruments that best emulate the human voice.... [img]http://www.scd.ucar.edu/zine/97/fall/images/bagpipes.gif[/img] I'd say it emulates the human voice very very well!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 11 2005, 10:00 PM'] Cam refuses to acknowledge this tidbit I know Weird Al Yankovic [/quote] Oops sorry, hot stuff knows Weird Al Yankovic. I can't believe I forgot that you know him...boy, do I have egg on my face for that one. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 11 2005, 10:07 PM'] As long as we're going to just have instruments that best emulate the human voice.... [img]http://www.scd.ucar.edu/zine/97/fall/images/bagpipes.gif[/img] I'd say it emulates the human voice very very well!! [/quote] Yes, but that is not the only criteria....and the organ still better emulates the human voice. Although, I have heard bagpipes played at a funeral. Not during the Liturgy, but at the cemetery..... Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloha918 Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 12 2005, 07:12 AM'] Yes, but that is not the only criteria....and the organ still better emulates the human voice. Although, I have heard bagpipes played at a funeral. Not during the Liturgy, but at the cemetery..... Cam [/quote] well actually the bagpipes can only be in the key of Bb.......... plus i think he was kinda kidding.......even though i have seen them used at my old high school for mass before.......amazing grace was played......it was sweet....and sacred...... I think that the reason you guys want to have the organ be the only instrument is because you guys cant sing!.......if you want an instrument that best resembles the human voice, but also drowns out singers....the organ is your instrument...... be like the rest of us that cant sing.......accept it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 11 2005, 09:46 PM'] However, I would say that while one can sing well with the guitar, one can sing better with the organ. The organ mimics the human voice better than the guitar and is a better lead than the guitar. That is fact. And I don't think that you'll find a musician who will disagree. [/quote] I'm a musician, and I disagree. I sing MUCH better with a guitar over an organ, by a long shot! My point is just that there is no reason, to me, that a guitar cannot be used. It seems as if you would prefer to view that the lack of the word "guitar" in the documents you quoted, would suggest that it is not allowed. I think that is presumptious. Okay, there's a big BUT....I was at the Cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul in Philadelphia this past Sunday. They had an amazing choir, and the organ did indeed sound beautiful. This would have been no place for a guitar. Now, I am not sure what that means...should all churches have that sense of tradition and reveerence, yes...probably, and I am probably discounting everything i have said thus far, but maybe this means something. Maybe this was the way it SHOULD be. Howvere, I also see that we don't have a choir like that or an organ like that at my parish, or any near me. So to use a guitar in worship seems better than the alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 11 2005, 11:46 PM'] The impotice is not on me to prove that the guitar is not part of sacred music, but rather for others to prove that it is. I have shown where the organ should have pride of place. I have shown where other instrumentation is acceptable, but there is no metion of the guitar....telling no? It is. Believe me, I have been exposed to very diverse styles of church music. I happen to be more than aquainted with Marty Haugan and David Haas. hot stuff and I used to run in the same circle as they did. As a matter of fact, we both know them well enough that if we were to pass them on the street, we would greet them by name and they would do likewise. And to take it one step further, I have taken several classes from Fr. J. Michael Joncas. Yep, that one....I am quite versed (pun intended) in church music. My personal mentor happens to be Rev. Msgr. Richard Schuler, who is one of the foremost musicologists of the 20th century. However, I would say that while one can sing well with the guitar, one can sing better with the organ. The organ mimics the human voice better than the guitar and is a better lead than the guitar. That is fact. And I don't think that you'll find a musician who will disagree. I have experienced guitar in the Mass, I daresay, I have even heard hot stuff play (incidentally, he is one of the most gifted guitarists I have ever known). He played for the wedding of some very close friends of ours. Ask any of the SJVer's about the diverse liturgy at the UST chapel and you will recant of that statement. I have heard it all....and sung it all. Yep, I sang in the Liturgical Choir of UST for four years. Cam N.B. hot stuff, I know that I haven't answered you yet, I am stalling....I am also waiting to see if anyone else will say something along those lines. [/quote] I have no problem with diverse instrumentation, its the lousy songs [includinghaugan-haas] that drive me crazy. Stuff simple enough for kindergarteners should not be featured at any Mass other than a childrens Mass, and that is pushing it. They have set liturgical music back 500 years. [url="http://www.mgilleland.com/music/moratorium.htm"]http://www.mgilleland.com/music/moratorium.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Oh man...that web site was funny. I think that is what I meant when I said perhaps Cam hadn't experienced it correctly. The musicians he mentioned aren't exactly what I was thinking...hehe. There is worship music that is actually very intense. It moves your spirit to a deep place of prayer. If I can find a site or a link, I would post it, but I don't know of anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Sorry Aloha, while we are may be on the same side of this debate, I must clarify Camster knows how to sing. He's sung for the Holy Father (God rest his soul). He's got a lovely voice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloha918 Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 ill have to hear it to believe it.........j/k i am sure he is good, but if he likes to sing......he shouldnt like organs.....they drown out the singers at mass.....at least the one at my church does.......it is insane how loud it is......the piano is much nicer, so is the guitar.......much more pleasent than a lound constant pitch that sounds like a whale........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 [quote]Okay, there's a big BUT....I was at the Cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul in Philadelphia this past Sunday. They had an amazing choir, and the organ did indeed sound beautiful. This would have been no place for a guitar.[/quote] Nicole you are touching on a verrrry important point to the argument. This is why I keep posing the question of "Why was the organ chosen?" You're right that the guitar wouldn't work at the Cathedral. But why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 hmmm..I'm interested to hear the answer to that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 You'd probably need about 150 000 guitars for them to be heard ina building the size of a Cathedral. I have a hard tme beiung in a room with 3 other guitar players..... I can't imagine..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloha918 Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 [quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:35 PM'] You'd probably need about 150 000 guitars for them to be heard ina building the size of a Cathedral. I have a hard tme beiung in a room with 3 other guitar players..... I can't imagine..... [/quote] or plug into an amp........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 12 2005, 08:52 AM'] I have no problem with diverse instrumentation, its the lousy songs [includinghaugan-haas] that drive me crazy. Stuff simple enough for kindergarteners should not be featured at any Mass other than a childrens Mass, and that is pushing it. They have set liturgical music back 500 years. [url="http://www.mgilleland.com/music/moratorium.htm"]http://www.mgilleland.com/music/moratorium.htm[/url] [/quote] For those of you who know my real name, you can see that I am a member of this website. [quote]I think that is what I meant when I said perhaps Cam hadn't experienced it correctly.[/quote] Believe me, I have experienced it correctly. Take a look at [url="http://www.stagnes.net/church/Main.do"]my home parish, St. Agnes[/url] and I have experienced it incorrectly, [url="http://minerva.stkate.edu/campusministry.nsf"]my alma mater's sister school.[/url] As I have said, I have a very diverse understanding of church music. Then again, diversity isn't always a good thing. The Church is clear about the sancitity of her music. I don't believe that most of the music out there is done properly. This includes the use of profane instrumentation. While I haven't given any doctrinal reasoning, I have given common senscial reasoning. Again, I have been exposed to everything from J. Michael Joncas to Vianese High Masses, done in the scope of the Liturgy. I lean toward the Vianese Masses, but understand that most parishes cannot accomplish this. However, all parishes can and should make use of Gregorian Chant. That means Latin. It is what is prescribed for in the Liturgy, even today's and polyphony is not out of the question either. It isn't all that hard to learn. I know from experience. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 [quote]or plug into an amp........ [/quote] Hmmmm.....do you need to amplify an organ by artificial means? And in most parish churches do you need to amplify the choir's voice? However, even in the smallest of parish churches do you need to amplify the guitar? Unless you are in the Florence Chapel at UST, I would say thatmost of the time you do. As a matter of fact, I have sung many, many times at the 4th largest Cathedral in the US and we have never had to use amplification of either the organ or the choir. However, the guitar needs to be amplified.....seems a little false to me. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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