Yay....the Vernacular

[Cam42]

[quote]A good music ministry, regardless of instrumentation, should be conducive to the paricipation of the entire congregation.[/quote]

And the guitar doesn't do that. That is the point for all of the documentation that I have been giving. Certain instruments are proper, certain instruments are not. Organs are, guitars are not. That which is profane cannot be sacred. Guitars are profane. (Think outside the pop culture meaning of profane. It is anything that is not sacred.)

Cam

[aloha918]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 9 2005, 11:10 PM'] So Pope St. Pius X's teachings are somehow not binding any longer....tell that to Aquinas. [/quote]
sorry i cant tell St. Thomas.....he is dead.......

im not saying that what pope pius had to say is wrong or incorrect.....i am more saying that you have to role with the punches when it comes to the date in history......a lot has changed since pope pius.....he would have probablly thought that vatican 2 was a horrible idea.....but it wasnt.....although that is a different topic then we are discussing....i think that we need to look at were are church is now and how we can bring people more to christ......and i would say for most it probablly not be the organ.....i hate organs....pianos are so much better...aty least at my church....lots of people like guitars and drums...if you dont like it......dont go to those masses.....some people enter in to Gods presence easier with a guitar than a organ.......and do you really want to get in the way of how people enter into the mass.......

[aloha918]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 10 2005, 07:18 PM']
And the guitar doesn't do that. That is the point for all of the documentation that I have been giving. Certain instruments are proper, certain instruments are not. Organs are, guitars are not. That which is profane cannot be sacred. Guitars are profane. (Think outside the pop culture meaning of profane. It is anything that is not sacred.)

Cam [/quote]
ya ok........you are saying that a guitar distracts everyone from participating with mass.......maybe it distracts you....but your not everyone.........

....and not sacred.....praising God with a beautiful instrument is sacred.....and that is what the guitar does....the organ does as well....either way they are praising God.....one more traditional, the other more contemporary.......

[Dave]

[quote name='aloha918' date='Apr 10 2005, 11:14 PM'] ....and not sacred.....praising God with a beautiful instrument is sacred.....and that is what the guitar does....the organ does as well....either way they are praising God.....one more traditional, the other more contemporary....... [/quote]
So you're saying that a guitar is a sacred instrument if it's used to praise God. But like I said in another thread, you can spray perfume on a turd, but it'll still stink. In the same way, you can use a secular instrument for a sacred purpose, but that won't make the instrument sacred or appropriate for Mass.

[Dave]

[quote name='aloha918' date='Apr 10 2005, 11:08 PM'] im not saying that what pope pius had to say is wrong or incorrect.....i am more saying that you have to role with the punches when it comes to the date in history......a lot has changed since pope pius.....he would have probablly thought that vatican 2 was a horrible idea.....but it wasnt.....although that is a different topic then we are discussing....i think that we need to look at were are church is now and how we can bring people more to christ......and i would say for most it probablly not be the organ.....i hate organs....pianos are so much better...aty least at my church....lots of people like guitars and drums...if you dont like it......dont go to those masses.....some people enter in to Gods presence easier with a guitar than a organ.......and do you really want to get in the way of how people enter into the mass....... [/quote]
But the whole point of Mass is the sacrifice of Jesus and His Body and Blood being made present once again on the altar. We don't go to Mass to be entertained by music.

Regarding Vatican II, Vatican II never permitted things like guitars in Mass. It said that instruments other than the organ could be used but that they had to be appropriate for Mass and contribute to a sense of the sacred. When has a guitar ever done that? Every time I hear a guitar at Mass it makes Mass seem more like a hootenanny.

[Cam42]

[quote name='aloha918' date='Apr 10 2005, 10:14 PM'] ya ok........you are saying that a guitar distracts everyone from participating with mass.......maybe it distracts you....but your not everyone.........

....and not sacred.....praising God with a beautiful instrument is sacred.....and that is what the guitar does....the organ does as well....either way they are praising God.....one more traditional, the other more contemporary....... [/quote]
Acutally, I haven't told you yet, what I think of the sound of a guitar. Well, actually, I have, but it has no bearing on this discussion. My assertations are not based upon my feelings, but rather what is and what is not considered Sacred Music and what is.

Just because Pope St. Pius X lived before Vatican Council II doesn't mean that his teachings are not authoritative. Actually, I think that I have also quoted Vactican Council II documents in my defense of Sacred Music NOT including guitars.

The Church doesn't consider the guitar to be a sacred instrument. That is why I have been giving you statements from the leading liturgists and musicologists of the 20th and 21st century to back my position.

[quote]But the whole point of Mass is the sacrifice of Jesus and His Body and Blood being made present once again on the altar. We don't go to Mass to be entertained by music.

Regarding Vatican II, Vatican II never permitted things like guitars in Mass. It said that instruments other than the organ could be used but that they had to be appropriate for Mass and contribute to a sense of the sacred.[/quote]

Exactly. Show me where it says that the guitar can be used. I have shown where it says that the organ is to be used and that the organ has pride of place.

I have also said that all of this is conditional that the chants of the Mass cannot be carried through the whole of the church.

Cam

[Jaime]

Yes Cam all that you say is correct.

However, you have not answered my question.

Why was the organ originally chosen? What theological reasons can you demonstrate that the organ was created to be sacred?

[Oik]

The Church proscribes that organ should be blessed. there is no other mention of a blessing for other instruments.

In all fairness, "secular" instrumentation has been allowed by the Church. Does this mean the Church in America should just abandon all chant and the organ? No.

Many that I have spoken with call our traditions of the organ and Chant boring, old-fashioned and out of date, what disrespect!

In the Eastern Catholic Church, they don't even use instruments, it is all chant!

There needs to be a re-evaluation of thge reasoning for using secular instrumentation.

When one says that it is to lead the congregatiopn in worship, there seems to be, in the contemporary sense, an implicit statement that Chant and the organ don't do this.

I believce there is room for a limited am,ount of instrumentation to accompany the traditions we already have...accompany, not take over.

[Nicole8223]

I have read all the posts in this thread, all the documentation, and all the opinions...

there is NOTHING that says it is wrong to use a guitar. There are ways that one could reach this conclusion using round-a-bout assertions of their own, but the Church does not look down on the guitar. Nothing posted has proven that.

Also, Cam, I believe you have not been exposed to the type of guitar music we are talking about if you are thinking of Jars of Clay and Steven Curtis Chapman. They are not worship bands. They are rock bands.

Guitar worship CERTAINLY is a great company to the voice. I sing better to guitar because it has obvious harmonics that make it easy to hear the harmonies and stay in key. I find it to be a tool of worship in the liturgy, and not a rock instrument. Maybe this is something you have to experience yourself to understand. Perhaps, Cam, you have just not experienced guitar used properly in the Mass.

[scardella]

This is from my limited knowledge (please correct me if I am wrong):
- Pipe organs were definitely a profane instrument in the time of the Romans. In fact, they were used for entertaining the crowds during the "bread and circuses".
- The Church has a history of incorporating things from the surrounding culture/practical things take on symbolic value. Witness liturgical dancing and drums in African liturgies. Also, water mixing w/ wine used to be simply to dilute it.
- Organs are not only used for Church music.
- Human voices are certainly not used only for Church music.
- The goal of the music is to foster participation and to elevate the participants to the divine character of the liturgy.

If the Church can sanctify an instrument that entertained crowds when Christians were being eaten by lions, etc. then why can't it sanctify a guitar? What defines what a sacred instrument is, anyway? That certainly is a matter of discipline, correct?

In my experience, the congregation's participation, the appropriateness of the songs (and, OT, the quality of readings and homily) were what made a Mass either "ordinary" (as if it could be) or more engaging.

[scardella]

OT -> Off-Topic not Old Testament

[aloha918]

[quote name='Dave' date='Apr 11 2005, 06:11 AM'] But the whole point of Mass is the sacrifice of Jesus and His Body and Blood being made present once again on the altar.  We don't go to Mass to be entertained by music.

.........hootenanny. [/quote]
this is very true........i completely agree......

but people go to mass to be entertained by an organ!!!!........this happens...i personally see it in my church.....we have a multi million dollar organ.......its insane.....

either way it will happen......... some people go to mass for the wrong reasons........and obviously there are more reasons than just music.....

what i am saying is that the mass is the sacrifice of christ's body and blood made present at the alter........and for some people.....he is made more present to them through contemporary music.....aka the guitar.......maybe not you....but for some...absolutely......you cant deny that.....christ works through the musician playing the guitar......the holy spirit has changed lives by this...you cant deny it.......for many it is not entertainment, but is a powerful way to worship our Lord at a time when we recieve the source and summit of our faith.......which for me would make it a sacred instrument.......no doubt about it......




by the way....i loved the hootenanny comment.....good word use.....haha....

Edited April 11, 2005 by aloha918

[journeyman]

[quote name='aloha918' date='Apr 11 2005, 04:03 PM']

by the way....i loved the hootenanny comment.....good word use.....haha.... [/quote]
I could live with that characterization of the guitar if I had not heard the music of Andre Segovia

[Cam42]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Apr 11 2005, 12:21 PM'] I have read all the posts in this thread, all the documentation, and all the opinions...

there is NOTHING that says it is wrong to use a guitar. There are ways that one could reach this conclusion using round-a-bout assertions of their own, but the Church does not look down on the guitar. Nothing posted has proven that.

Also, Cam, I believe you have not been exposed to the type of guitar music we are talking about if you are thinking of Jars of Clay and Steven Curtis Chapman. They are not worship bands. They are rock bands.

Guitar worship CERTAINLY is a great company to the voice. I sing better to guitar because it has obvious harmonics that make it easy to hear the harmonies and stay in key. I find it to be a tool of worship in the liturgy, and not a rock instrument. Maybe this is something you have to experience yourself to understand. Perhaps, Cam, you have just not experienced guitar used properly in the Mass. [/quote]
The impotice is not on me to prove that the guitar is not part of sacred music, but rather for others to prove that it is. I have shown where the organ should have pride of place. I have shown where other instrumentation is acceptable, but there is no metion of the guitar....telling no? It is.

Believe me, I have been exposed to very diverse styles of church music. I happen to be more than aquainted with Marty Haugan and David Haas. hot stuff and I used to run in the same circle as they did. As a matter of fact, we both know them well enough that if we were to pass them on the street, we would greet them by name and they would do likewise.

And to take it one step further, I have taken several classes from Fr. J. Michael Joncas. Yep, that one....I am quite versed (pun intended) in church music. My personal mentor happens to be Rev. Msgr. Richard Schuler, who is one of the foremost musicologists of the 20th century.

However, I would say that while one can sing well with the guitar, one can sing better with the organ. The organ mimics the human voice better than the guitar and is a better lead than the guitar. That is fact. And I don't think that you'll find a musician who will disagree.

I have experienced guitar in the Mass, I daresay, I have even heard hot stuff play (incidentally, he is one of the most gifted guitarists I have ever known). He played for the wedding of some very close friends of ours. Ask any of the SJVer's about the diverse liturgy at the UST chapel and you will recant of that statement. I have heard it all....and sung it all. Yep, I sang in the Liturgical Choir of UST for four years.

Cam

N.B. hot stuff, I know that I haven't answered you yet, I am stalling....I am also waiting to see if anyone else will say something along those lines.

[Jaime]

Cam refuses to acknowledge this tidbit


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