MARIOLATRY

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 06:48 AM'] Well that's my point - why is Mary any different?  She was born the same as us of human parents - she was not sinless.[/quote]

Then my question for you is: what makes Christ any different? He was born of a human parent.

[quote]Also the promises to Abraham were literal: God told Abraham to walk the length and breadth of the land "for I will give it to you".[/quote]

It seems to me that this is a reference to the inheritance of Israel, not just Abraham.

[quote]What is the point of resurrection then? If we have immortal souls which float up to heaven when we die, what is the point of a bodily resurrection?[/quote]

We can still experience the physical ecstasy of Heaven...that doesn't mean that we have to be in a physical world.

[quote]I disagree. There will be one. It is what "the Hope of Israel" is all about: the Apostle Paul was in chains for it. The prophecies are very clear about God's Kingdom on earth: the Lord Jesus will reign as King from Jerusalem and teach the nations righteousness.[/quote]

The Lord Jesus has already come and already reigns. He will come again, but He is already the Messiah.

[quote]that is why the Jews are back in their land after 2000 years of dispersion: what other nation in the world could be scattered all over the world without a land to call their own - only to be brought back together 2000 years later.[/quote]

The Abbot Primate used to tell us, "the psalms say to trust not in warriors or chariots, but modern Israel does this all the time with their power." I like that there is an Israel, but if there were finally a Messiah other than Christ, what would be the point? What would they be saved from in the physical realm?

[quote]I agree that earthly things can be a SHADOW of things to come (such as the Tabernacle and Mosaic Law); but God's WORD (and His promises) are NOT SHADOWS - I believe they are real and He will bring them to pass.[/quote]

Of course they're not shadows...they are real...but that doesn't mean their literal.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 13 2005, 11:42 AM']
Then my question for you is: what makes Christ any different? He was born of a human parent.











[/quote]
Because His Father was not human. Christ had a human, sinful, mother; but His Father was the Creator of the whole universe. Imagine if God was YOUR Father; what would that make YOU? Mind-blowing!!!

[quote]It seems to me that this is a reference to the inheritance of Israel, not just Abraham.[/quote]

It is to Abraham and to "his seed" SINGULAR - ie: Christ. So Christ will inherit the land: and allo those who are His true followers who are heirs according to the promise.

[quote]We can still experience the physical ecstasy of Heaven...that doesn't mean that we have to be in a physical world.
[/quote]

what's the point of resurrection then? The Lord has a physical body - and we will too (by His grace) when He returns.

[quote]The Lord Jesus has already come and already reigns.  He will come again, but He is already the Messiah.
[/quote]

No He doesn't - just look at the state of the world. The devil (human nature) the prince of this world: Satan's kingdom is reigning at present and Satan has not yet been bound for 1000 years.

but Christ's Kingdom will smash the Kingdoms of men when He returns.

[quote]The Abbot Primate used to tell us, "the psalms say to trust not in warriors or chariots, but modern Israel does this all the time with their power."  I like that there is an Israel, but if there were finally a Messiah other than Christ, what would be the point?  What would they be saved from in the physical realm?
[/quote]


What do you mean? There will be no Messiah other than Christ: He is the only hope for the Jewish nation if only they knew it. they are secular at the moment and God is going to have to bring them to the end of themselves: but one day they will "look upon Him whom they pierced" and mourn.
The veil will be taken away, and they will see that Jesus (Yeshua) is their true Messiah all along. Many Jews already believe this all over the world - many are coming to accept Jesus as their Messiah.

When the Lord comes back, He will establish the throne of David and the government will rest upon His shoulders, and He will be Prince of Peace.

There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Lord comes back. surely? He is the only answer.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 12:56 PM'] Because His Father was not human. Christ had a human, sinful, mother; but His Father was the Creator of the whole universe. Imagine if God was YOUR Father; what would that make YOU? Mind-blowing!!!



It is to Abraham and to "his seed" SINGULAR - ie: Christ. So Christ will inherit the land: and allo those who are His true followers who are heirs according to the promise.



what's the point of resurrection then? The Lord has a physical body - and we will too (by His grace) when He returns.



No He doesn't - just look at the state of the world. The devil (human nature) the prince of this world: Satan's kingdom is reigning at present and Satan has not yet been bound for 1000 years.

but Christ's Kingdom will smash the Kingdoms of men when He returns.




What do you mean? There will be no Messiah other than Christ: He is the only hope for the Jewish nation if only they knew it. they are secular at the moment and God is going to have to bring them to the end of themselves: but one day they will "look upon Him whom they pierced" and mourn.
The veil will be taken away, and they will see that Jesus (Yeshua) is their true Messiah all along. Many Jews already believe this all over the world - many are coming to accept Jesus as their Messiah.

When the Lord comes back, He will establish the throne of David and the government will rest upon His shoulders, and He will be Prince of Peace.

There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Lord comes back. surely? He is the only answer. [/quote]
[quote]Because His Father was not human. Christ had a human, sinful, mother; but His Father was the Creator of the whole universe. Imagine if God was YOUR Father; what would that make YOU? Mind-blowing!!![/quote]

And Mary's Creator was the same Person. I don't see why He couldn't make her immaculate based on your logic.

[quote]It is to Abraham and to "his seed" SINGULAR - ie: Christ. So Christ will inherit the land: and allo those who are His true followers who are heirs according to the promise.[/quote]

"Seed" is a plural, also, like "deer" and "fish."

[quote]what's the point of resurrection then? The Lord has a physical body - and we will too (by His grace) when He returns.[/quote]

What I just said: we do not need the earth to experience physical ecstasy.

[quote]No He doesn't - just look at the state of the world. The devil (human nature) the prince of this world: Satan's kingdom is reigning at present and Satan has not yet been bound for 1000 years.[/quote]

Satan is bound. Other demons run rampant, but if you look at Christian art through history, it consistently depicts Satan bound in hell. The Kingdom, the Church, is established.

[quote]What do you mean? There will be no Messiah other than Christ: He is the only hope for the Jewish nation if only they knew it. they are secular at the moment and God is going to have to bring them to the end of themselves: but one day they will "look upon Him whom they pierced" and mourn.
The veil will be taken away, and they will see that Jesus (Yeshua) is their true Messiah all along. Many Jews already believe this all over the world - many are coming to accept Jesus as their Messiah.

When the Lord comes back, He will establish the throne of David and the government will rest upon His shoulders, and He will be Prince of Peace.

There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Lord comes back. surely? He is the only answer.[/quote]

None of this means that we will return to a physical world. If we were, would we be "caught up in the air with the Lord"?

[Priscilla]

[quote]=Raphael,Apr 13 2005, 12:03 PM]

And Mary's Creator was the same Person.  I don't see why He couldn't make her immaculate based on your logic.[/quote]



Because Mary had a human mother AND father. Christ only had a human mother. His Father was divine. Nevertheless I believe Christ still shared out nature.

[quote]Satan is bound.  Other demons run rampant, but if you look at Christian art through history, it consistently depicts Satan bound in hell.  The Kingdom, the Church, is established.
[/quote]

We have to agree to disagree then. The Kingdom hasn't come yet. It will only come when Christ reigns, and there is no more unrighteousness in the world.

How can you say that Satan is bound when mend and women kill each other and ahrm each other, and steal, and commit all kinds of atrocities?

[quote]None of this means that we will return to a physical world.  If we were, would we be "caught up in the air with the Lord"?[/quote]

Again we'll have to agree to disagree - though i agree there is a sense in which the Kingdom is a "here and now" experience; but principally, it is to come when the Lord returns to reign from Jerusalem.

I believe it will be a physical world: the Lord is returning to set up His Kingdom on earth as promised to Abraham, David and all the Patriarchs and faithful saints of old. He will rule with a rod of iron until that last enemy to be defeated (death) is destroyed; then there will be no more crying or pain when Christ has handed the Kingdom back to God, so that God may be all and in all.

Edited April 13, 2005 by Priscilla

[jezic]

did Jesus literally mean to tear down the temple in three days and rebuild it?

No the temple stood, he was talking about his body.

In the same way much of scripture prefigures what is to come IN HEAVEN by using our ordinary everyday language. It does this symbolically, not literally.


Also the Bible is not the story of practical history. It doesn't necessarily need physical laws. It is the history of Salvation. That is a spiritual topic and must be dealt with on that level. Physical terms are used to describe these spiritual realities that cannot be expressed in another way. This doesn't detract from the spiritual nature of the words though.

Edited April 13, 2005 by jezic

[scardella]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 05:55 AM'] Good point - but Mary was a Jewess. She still observed the Law of Moses and went for her cleansing after she'd given birth. The Law is holy, just and good, but righteousness comes by faith.

What do you think happened to all the faithful Jews before Christ was born then?

Do you believe they are all in hell? (the grave)

I believe the faithful Jews will be resurrected: although Christ wasn't born, God made provision and way for their salvation. [/quote]
What you're forgetting is that true Christianity is the Jewish faith fulfilled. In fact, until the Jews broke off from the Christians by not accepting Jesus formally as the Messiah, Christianity was seen as part of Judaism. It was a radical change, to be sure, but when the bride gets married, her whole life changes. Mary was the first Christian because she was the first one to see it fulfilled. She exhibited her (pre-existing) faith with her [i]fiat[/i] (when Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word."). It was actually like her whole life was one big [i]fiat[/i].

I think that the faithful Jews who had died were hanging around waiting for the Messiah in some form of limbo until Christ's death. (I think someone else mentioned Abraham's bosom...) That's (at least part of) where Christ went when He descended into the dead/hell as per the Apostle's Creed. They got to hear Him preach the Gospel too. They'd have to accept it or reject it. Of course they'd have to have some form of consciousness post mortem, but I believe that, so it's not a problem for me.

BTW, the Greek, [i]kekaritomene[/i], (spelling? I forget) is translated "full of grace" (not "highly favored daughter"; that's pulled from a similar event in the OT, which I can't remember exactly what right now) which is equivalent to no sin. If you're full of grace, then there's no room for anything else, eg sin.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Actually, there's more to the "full of grace" stance. The Greek word is a perfect participle--thus, past tense. A better translation would read "you who have been graced"-- as an action that was completed in the past, but has a revelance to the present--i.e, Mary's bearing the Savior in her womb. She was prepared for this mission from the beginning. God's a smart one. He thinks ahead.

[photosynthesis]

1) She is dead - just like all the other saints awaiting resurrection

...Mary is in Heaven, therefore she is more alive than we are.

2) There is NOTHING in Scripture commanding us to pray/worship her, or that she has an intercessory role. The idea that she "intercedes" is man-made.

You're right. Scripture doesn't tell us to worship Mary. Therefore, Catholics (i.e. those who believe the teachings of the Catholic Church) do not worship Mary. If you go back to the original etymolgy of the word "pray," it means "ask." When wa "pray" to Mary, or Saints, we are not worshipping them in anyway, but we are praying (asking) for their intercession. Since they're in heaven, untainted by doubt and sin, and at the throne of God for eternity, their prayers are powerful. Also, check out Ephesians 6:18-19, Revelation 5:8, and Romans 15:30. How many times do you ask your Christian friends to pray for you? Why do you do that? Well, Catholics pray to Mary and the saints for the same reason. Their prayers are powerful, and we depend on them.

3) It is idolatry to kiss/worship/pray tot he dead or a statue.

Again, prayer with Mary/Saints is a different form of spiritual communication than the divine worship of God. Plus, they're in heaven, so they're not dead. Personally, I think it's gross to kiss a dead person, but I've seen people kiss their dead grandparents/husbands/friends during a viewing or memorial service. I don't think that's idolatry. I haven't worshipped any dead people or statues, and I don't know of any Catholics that do that, or any place in Catholic teaching that says it's OK to do that.

4) As pure and holy a woman she was, she still needed a Saviour which she clearly stated in her beautiful prayer "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in GOD MY SAVIOUR" Mary needed a Saviour.

Mary had a good reason to rejoice in God her Saviour. He rescued her from sin even before she was born. That makes her pretty special. Say there's a huge hole, and you fall into it, and someone else stronger than you goes down into the hole to pull you out. They saved you, by going down with you. But let's say you were walking towards the hole and you don't see it, and you *almost* fall in...and someone physically stops you from falling in. In both cases, someone saves you. In one situation, you fall in (sin) and in the other situation, you were protected from falling in the first place. Two types of salvation.

Well, in Mary's case, she didn't fall into the hole (sin). Because even before she was born, it was God's will that she would be pure and immaculate to bear the Son of God. Jesus is the Word made flesh, and thus his mother Mary is the new Tabernacle (a vessel carrying the Word of God). In Exodus 25:11-21, God wanted the Israelites to make their tabernacle out of the purest gold for God's word. How much purer would Mary have to be to carry the Word of God made flesh?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Apr 13 2005, 02:30 PM'] Actually, there's more to the "full of grace" stance. The Greek word is a perfect participle--thus, past tense. A better translation would read "you who have been graced"-- as an action that was completed in the past, but has a revelance to the present--i.e, Mary's bearing the Savior in her womb. She was prepared for this mission from the beginning. God's a smart one. He thinks ahead. [/quote]
Bingo. "Kaire kecharitomene!"

[Priscilla]

[quote name='jezic' date='Apr 13 2005, 01:16 PM'] did Jesus literally mean to tear down the temple in three days and rebuild it?

No the temple stood, he was talking about his body.

In the same way much of scripture prefigures what is to come IN HEAVEN by using our ordinary everyday language. It does this symbolically, not literally.


Also the Bible is not the story of practical history. It doesn't necessarily need physical laws. It is the history of Salvation. That is a spiritual topic and must be dealt with on that level. Physical terms are used to describe these spiritual realities that cannot be expressed in another way. This doesn't detract from the spiritual nature of the words though. [/quote]
So are Catholics evolutionists then? Don't you believe that God created the heavens and the earth in six days?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 03:56 PM'] So are Catholics evolutionists then? Don't you believe that God created the heavens and the earth in six days? [/quote]
No, we have no official stance, except on a few things in creation that had to happen.

[MichaelFilo]

Catholics can choose evolutoin or creationism, or anything else that might come up, like the days actually stood for 1.3 hours.. whatever, it doesn't matter. Catholics must assent to the fact that God made it all.

God bless,
Mikey

[jezic]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 02:56 PM'] So are Catholics evolutionists then? Don't you believe that God created the heavens and the earth in six days? [/quote]
Physical words for a spiritual reality..........

that has nothing to do with evolution, but i believe that whatever God did he took as much time as he wanted and we called it 7 days. Maybe he did it in 6 days. Maybe in 50 000 000 years. I will ask him when i meet him when i die. Until then, well he did it. We are here!!! Yay!!!!

Besides how can we (humans) restrict the power of God by telling him what we did?

btw, didn't that avoid my entire premise, that interpreting much of the bible literally doesn't work. Most of it is symbolid. you talk about a new Jerusalem. That is the city of the kingdom, the city of the King.

It doesn't necessarily mean a "human" city. It might be a divine one where people just float close together. You can't say it is either because we don't know. So we guess. That doesn't make our guess correct though.

Babylon in the story of Revelation is used as a symbol for Rome. That is clearly evident. There is much symbolism in Revelation which makes any literal interpretation subject to question because it can't be forsure.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='jezic' date='Apr 13 2005, 08:54 PM'] Physical words for a spiritual reality..........

[/quote]
I know what you mean Jezic - but sometimes it can mean BOTH.

Just take for example that Scripture "I called my son out of Egypt".

Now any spiritual leader of Israel would have probably thought that this Scripture was spiritual: it didn't literally mean that God would literally call His Son literally out of Egypt.

But He did, didn't He?

Otherwise Matthew wouldn't have been moved by the Holy Spirit to have quoted it?


I must say, I am very impressed with everyone's knowledge of Scripture here - I was under the impression Catholics didn't know their Bibles very well, but you all know it very well on here.

The strange thing is though, that Catholics seem not to believe some Scriptures are literal, but others are.

Haven't you got it the wrong way round? I refer to transubstantiation - here you all think John 6:55 is LITERAL - when Jesus clearly says a few verses later that His words AREN'T LITERAL - but they are SPIRIT and LIFE.

Yet the literal Scriptures Catholics seem to "spiritualise".

I don't get it.

[Archangel]

Jesus did mean it literally that we need to eat His Body and drink His Blood through the bread and wne of the Eucharist.

That is why many of His disciples were shocked at hearing Him say this:

John 6
60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, [b]"This saying is hard; who can accept it?"[/b]
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, [b]"Does this shock you?[/b]

Edited April 14, 2005 by Archangel