MARIOLATRY

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 12 2005, 06:37 AM'] Yes but they're NEVER of people or animals.  They are forbidden. [/quote]
A torah cover with grey doves:

[img]http://www.nkatzart.com/images/syn/tufts.JPEG[/img]

A torah belt with lions:

[img]http://jewishbazaar.com/BAZAAR/TN/TorahBelts.jpg[/img]

Finally, a stained-glass window with lions in Temple Beth El of Munster, Indiana.:

[img]http://www.wilmarkstudios.com/images/synagogue/5_large.jpg[/img]

[quote]Actualy I think you have it the wrong way round:  I believe Christianity has strayed far far away from it's Jewish roots:  WE (the believing Gentiles) ahve been GRAFTED INTO the TRUE olive tree of believing Israel. [/quote]

No one grafts plant limbs onto the roots of a plant.

Rather, we must look at the Jewish customs at the time of Jesus and before. The temple had MUCH art. Furthermore, the Catholic Mass IS a Jewish Sader meal. Compare the two...you will be surprised. Additionally, the Catholic clergy and much of the laity prays the Liturgy of the Hours, which is founded on the psalms. The Catholic Church expresses the fullness of what Judaism offers, not just in doctrine and salvation, but in customs as well.

[quote]It is the Church which has gone away from it's Jewish roots to the point that it has persecuted the Jews:  the Cursades, the Inquisition, the Pogroms:  even Pope Joh Paul II had to APOLOGISE for th sins of the Catholic chruch as it has been so anti-semitic in the past.[/quote]

Pope John Paul the Great did not apologize for the sins of the Catholic Church. He expressed deep regret and sorrow over the sins of some members of the Catholic Church (among others). The Crusades were originally started for just reasons. If you want the true spirit of the Crusases, look up St. King Louis IX of France. He was a crusader who, having captured the city of Damietta, walked into it barefoot in crusader's simple garb, proclaiming that he came not to conquer, but simply to liberate. Were there attacks on Jews? Unfortunately, yes. Does that mean that the Catholic Church was at fault? No. Everyone in the Church, save Jesus and Mary, is a sinner. That's not the fault of the Church.

[quote]Why?  Because it's roots is in PAGANISM.  It has got divorced from it's Jewish roots.[/quote]

In Judges 6:26, God commands Gideon to cut down an altar to the pagan god Baal and use its parts (the altar pole in particular) to build one to the the one true God. There is nothing wrong with taking pagan things and making them into Christian things which honor God rather than oppose Him. There is nothing wrong with taking dead things and bringing them to life...this is, itself, what God does.

However, to say that the Catholic Church is divorced from it's Jewish roots is incorrect. If you really want to do it, please start another thread.

[quote]This is not to say that Gentiles should get circumcised and all that kind of thing:  WE have ALL the promises to Abraham WITHOUT having to keep ANY of the 613 Mosaic Laws.  However, the Gospel was preached to Abraham:  that is the Kigdom of God on earth and a bodily resurrection when the Lord Jesus reigns.[/quote]

I don't understand your claim in this statement. Please elaborate.

[Priscilla]

OK - I admit I was wrong about the animals - evidently!!!

But certainly not dead people.

Yes - my history is appalling. I confess I'm very ignorant in many areas.

I'm still not comfortable with praying to Mary.

And I believe she was a sinner. She admitted in her Magnificat that she needed a Saviour.

[Priscilla]

About my statement which you wanted clarification on Raphael: it's difficult to explain in few words.

What I'm trying to say is that it is wrong for Gentiles to revert to Judaism - the Galatians did this and were severly reprimanded by the Apostle Paul. It is like saying that Christ died for nothing.

Gentiles do not need to keep the Law of Moses.

However, we are called unto good works, and faith without works is dead: but we do not need to eat kosher food, or men do not need to get circumcised or observe days and months (as the Galatians were doing).

The Law of Moses cannot give righteousness.

This is the amazing thing: we Gentiles can have EXACTLY THE SAME INHERITANCE as the Jews without having to kep all the Law.

The book of Romans explains it better than I can.

What is the inheritance of the Jews? It's the Kingdom of God on earth: they shall reign as kings and priests with Christ when He reigns on David's throne from Jerusalem.

It is the "hope of Israel" which the disciples were looking for and earnestly desiring.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:08 PM'] OK - I admit I was wrong about the animals - evidently!!!

But certainly not dead people.

Yes - my history is appalling. I confess I'm very ignorant in many areas.

I'm still not comfortable with praying to Mary.

And I believe she was a sinner. She admitted in her Magnificat that she needed a Saviour. [/quote]
I'll work on finding the dead people.

Regardless, the saints aren't dead.

Work on the history...we can be patient.

Mary was not a sinner. She was full of grace. The Catholic Church does believe that she needed a Savior. However, the benefits of Christ's sacrifice were granted to her at conception, so that she was saved from original sin. It only makes sense that she, the New Eve, would be given the same ability, total freedom from sin, to choose to say yes where Eve had said no.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:16 PM'] About my statement which you wanted clarification on Raphael: it's difficult to explain in few words.

What I'm trying to say is that it is wrong for Gentiles to revert to Judaism - the Galatians did this and were severly reprimanded by the Apostle Paul. It is like saying that Christ died for nothing.

Gentiles do not need to keep the Law of Moses.

However, we are called unto good works, and faith without works is dead: but we do not need to eat kosher food, or men do not need to get circumcised or observe days and months (as the Galatians were doing).

The Law of Moses cannot give righteousness.

This is the amazing thing: we Gentiles can have EXACTLY THE SAME INHERITANCE as the Jews without having to kep all the Law.

The book of Romans explains it better than I can.

What is the inheritance of the Jews? It's the Kingdom of God on earth: they shall reign as kings and priests with Christ when He reigns on David's throne from Jerusalem.

It is the "hope of Israel" which the disciples were looking for and earnestly desiring. [/quote]
But in the fullness of the Covenant, in the Church, we also have the Kingdom of God in Heaven.

[point5]

Mary still needed a Savior. A savior which made it so she could be without sin.

[Priscilla]

Well we're all without sin then.

I like the idea of Mary being like a "new Eve" - but I do not believe she was born as Eve was when she was first created. I believe Mary was born a sinner and needed redemption just like everyone else. But I appreciate the principle: just like the Lord is the Last Adam, and the Second Man.

About God's Kingdom: Ib elieve it's going to be on earth. Literally. God's still has not fulfilled His promise to Abraham to give the the land: and God does not break His promises.

If God doesn't keep His promise to Abraham, then He can break His promises with us. Which He won't.

So I believe that Abraham will be resurrected, and will be given the land of Israel as a possession - just as God promised him. And that is our inheritance too: the Kingdom of God on earth - literal earth: a literal Kingdom.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:30 PM'] Well we're all without sin then. [/quote]
Why would that make us all without sin?

[quote]About God's Kingdom:  Ib elieve it's going to be on earth.  Literally.  God's still has not fulfilled His promise to Abraham to give the the land:  and God does not break His promises.[/quote]

But the Bible also says that this world is passing away. I believe that the imagery of the "Land of Milk and Honey" was relating to Heaven, to the Heavenly Jerusalem. We are told that we will dwell in the Heavenly Jerusalem, not in an earthy paradise.

[quote]If God doesn't keep His promise to Abraham, then He can break His promises with us.  Which He won't.[/quote]

You're right. God doesn't break promises. It is important, however, to realize what His promises actually are. God promised a savior to the Jews and as we see in Simon the Zealot, the Jews expected a savior who would liberate them from worldly powers. The modern Jews largely still do. There never will be one. Does that mean that God broke His promises? No...it means that God promised something great and they assumed the promise to be about something smaller. We do this all too often...assuming that everything is about this life and this world and not about Heaven. We look to the foreshadowings of Heaven and think that's all there is...we look to ourselves, images of God, and worship ourselves and our possessions...bam, secular humanism.

[quote]So I believe that Abraham will be resurrected, and will be given the land of Israel as a possession - just as God promised him.  And that is our inheritance too:  the Kingdom of God on earth - literal earth:  a literal Kingdom.[/quote]

We will have a literal kingdom. A heavenly kingdom is more real than an earthy one...earthy things are images of Heavenly things.

[scardella]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 12 2005, 12:08 PM'] And I believe she was a sinner. She admitted in her Magnificat that she needed a Saviour. [/quote]
As the (Blessed? Saint?) Duns Scotus observed (this may be a little fuzzy in my head...) that there are 2 ways that some problem can be resolved/saved: prevention from the problem or fixing the problem once it has occurred.

Ex: You are driving on a road and a couple of miles ahead there is a huge hole in said road. If someone goes and fixes the road in some manner before you get there, then you'll drive over, no problem. You've just been saved from diving into a huge hole. Or, you could drive and fall into the hole, and someone could come tow you out of it (and fix your car/you too). You've just been saved, but in a different way.

Mary just got Salvation the first way. The only thing to wrap your head around is that God applied the grace from the Cross to an event before the Cross. It's part of that whole "God not being limited by time" thing.

[Donna]

Various thoughts, and pardon me for the length of them!

First of all, there is no requirement that one must kneel down before a statue of Our Lady in order to be Catholic, or to become a Catholic.

Second, worship for a Catholic is the Holy Sacrfice of the Mass. Jesus -not Mary- is offered to the Father. Jesus is offered to the First Person of the blessed Trinity - not to Mary.

Do you believe in the Precious Blood of Jesus, Priscilla? Our Lord took the matter of His Precious Blood from Mary. Her flesh has something to do with you. Why would the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, He whom the heavens cannot contain, and who made the heavens, be content with the throne of His mother's heart, in her womb?

Could the Son of God really be associated in any way - the Sinless One come to take away ALL sins of the world- with sin in His very flesh, in taking on the sinful flesh of His mother? Get a grip! She is immaculate; AND she needed a Savior. Who redeemed her before she was conceived? [i]She[/i] didn't, lol.

She is the Mediatrix of all graces; and in this way, precisely: Because the Second Person of the Holy Trinity [i]Incarnate[/i] is the form willed by the Trinity to be the Redeemer of the human race. That is what Jesus Christ is: The Word made flesh, and in a certain sense, there was no Jesus Christ (but only the Second Person) before He became flesh..

The moment He did become flesh -hence the visitation from God on us, the fulfilling of this Redeemer long promised - was "announced": [i]Hail, full of grace...[/i]

The true name of what we call the Hail Mary prayer is [i]The Angelic Salutation[/i] and this prayer is intimately bound up with our salvation. Jesus Christ is the same today, yesterday and forever, as in Hebrews. He came through Mary, and by her, we have Him. Yesterday, [i]today[/i] and forever.

This is what [i]He[/i] did, and [i]He[/i] willed it thus, and the manner in which He willed it. No pope nor person is responsible for Our Lady being truly the Ark of the New Covenant.

It is not comely for the grafted branch to repudiate its Savior, nor for the first born of Israel. You go to a Latin Mass, Priscilla, and you'll see the Old Testament and New; and you'll understand down to the vestments those parts of Exodus which have been quoted re: the ornate graven images of cherubim and etc;.

The sacrifice was taken from Isreal, the corrupted priests, back in Malachai; who could not weep? And where are the Jewish brethren? Where are you? Not at the sacrifice [i]from the rising of the sun to the setting thereof, thre is clean oblation offered to me...[/i] Not yet.

Surely it isn't too much to go into a church which has a statue in it? Have you talked to Our Lord about this? IMO, maybe you are being attacked by the enemy, for something is trying very hard to keep you from even considering the possibility of sitting in a church which happens to have a statue in it; which you are NOT required to even[b] like [/b]as a non-Catholic, nor EVER required to "adore" as you say, if you WERE a Catholic.

Or you're really at heart, Jewish. I know, you assert no Mosiac law, and etc; but really, your views (and how did you come by them? There seems to be a lot of tradition by which you've learned. Why is your tradition of God and Catholic Tradition is not? ) are reminiscent of Judaism, down to clean and unclean. Do you also follow the lunar cycle for the Sabbath?

Or, you're too smart and stubborn for your own good.

The one thing the Catholic Church has, which has not yet been brought up, is her miracles. You may wish to look into them; sure, God only knows the heart of a man which "man" might praise, tho' it be rotten. Quite a few of the saints were hated by the world. Happily, the fruit of their good works also took place in the form of miracles, so that we would have some way to verify the truth.

I hope you might look into the Ratisbonne brothers - Jewish converts who became priests in the 1800's.

It is a sad existence when we don't know our mother, the Queen Mother of the King of the Jews. That comment cannot be explained rightly. Ask Brother Adam. But once you do know your mother better, you'll understand her Son more, and love Him more. Jesus Christ was a very good Son who perfectly kept the Commandments: honor thy father [i]and thy mother [/i]- no one does this better. It makes us want to imitate Him, with our dear mama's, but with His mama, too; and He takes us right where we're at, doesn't He, if we have a good will.

If we "receive the love of the truth that we might be saved".

Edited April 13, 2005 by Donna

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 12 2005, 12:21 PM'] But in the fullness of the Covenant, in the Church, we also have the Kingdom of God in Heaven. [/quote]
Well I don't know about that: the New Jerusalem IS COMING DOWN [b]OUT[/b] OF HEAVEN to the earth.

You see God said to Abraham "See the land which I will give you: WALK UP AND DOWN IN IT, for the land which you see I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU AND YOUR SEED FOR EVER"

God SWORE AN OATH that He would give it to Abraham.

Well, Abraham died WITHOUT RECEIVING THE PROMISE. He never received and inch of the land - he even had to buy a grave for Sarah his wife.

So will God break that promise? Surely not? God will give the land to Abraham when He is resurrected when the Lord Jesus comes back to reign.

The the promises to Abraham are our promises too - because we become an "heir to [b]the promise[/b]" when we get baptised in faith.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 12 2005, 12:49 PM'] Why would that make us all without sin?









[/quote]
Well that's my point - why is Mary any different? She was born the same as us of human parents - she was not sinless.

But in Christ we are told that "Whoever is born of God sinneth not" because His seed remains in us. (1 John)

[quote]But the Bible also says that this world is passing away.  I believe that the imagery of the "Land of Milk and Honey" was relating to Heaven, to the Heavenly Jerusalem.  We are told that we will dwell in the Heavenly Jerusalem, not in an earthy paradise.
[/quote]

I'm not so sure: as I said in my previous post the New Jerusalem is coming down OUT of heaven. God is going to dwell with men ON THE EARTH.

Also the promises to Abraham were literal: God told Abraham to walk the length and breadth of the land "for I will give it to you".

Well Abraham never received even an inch of the land before he died: so that promise still has to be fulfilled when God resurrects Abraham.

What is the point of resurrection then? If we have immortal souls which float up to heaven when we die, what is the point of a bodily resurrection?

[quote]You're right.  God doesn't break promises.  It is important, however, to realize what His promises actually are.  God promised a savior to the Jews and as we see in Simon the Zealot, the Jews expected a savior who would liberate them from worldly powers.  The modern Jews largely still do.  There never will be one. [/quote]

I disagree. There will be one. It is what "the Hope of Israel" is all about: the Apostle Paul was in chains for it. The prophecies are very clear about God's Kingdom on earth: the Lord Jesus will reign as King from Jerusalem and teach the nations righteousness.

that is why the Jews are back in their land after 2000 years of dispersion: what other nation in the world could be scattered all over the world without a land to call their own - only to be brought back together 2000 years later.

It's a miracle!!!

God is working out His plan and purpose: as it says in Daniel "God rules in the kingdoms of men".


[quote]We will have a literal kingdom.  A heavenly kingdom is more real than an earthy one...earthy things are images of Heavenly things.[/quote]

I agree that earthly things can be a SHADOW of things to come (such as the Tabernacle and Mosaic Law); but God's WORD (and His promises) are NOT SHADOWS - I believe they are real and He will bring them to pass.

[Priscilla]

Deleted - double post

Edited April 13, 2005 by Priscilla

[Priscilla]

[quote name='scardella' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:24 PM']
Mary just got Salvation the first way. The only thing to wrap your head around is that God applied the grace from the Cross to an event before the Cross. It's part of that whole "God not being limited by time" thing. [/quote]
Good point - but Mary was a Jewess. She still observed the Law of Moses and went for her cleansing after she'd given birth. The Law is holy, just and good, but righteousness comes by faith.

What do you think happened to all the faithful Jews before Christ was born then?

Do you believe they are all in hell? (the grave)

I believe the faithful Jews will be resurrected: although Christ wasn't born, God made provision and way for their salvation.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Donna' date='Apr 13 2005, 05:18 AM'] Various thoughts, and pardon me for the length of them!

First of all, there is no requirement that one must kneel down before a statue of Our Lady in order to be Catholic, or to become a Catholic.

.

[/quote]
Oh good.

Actually I DO (sometimes - less often now) and have been into high Anglican churches were there are statues of Mary. I jsut take no notice. but I don't like it. I feel I'm in some strange forgein place. It's weird. I find it hard to worship the Lord with graven images all around me.

[quote]Do you believe in the Precious Blood of Jesus, Priscilla?[/quote]

Oh absolutely!! It is by His Blood we are redeemed. there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood.


[quote]
Could the Son of God really be associated in any way - the Sinless One come to take away ALL sins of the world- with sin in His very flesh, in taking on the sinful flesh of His mother? [/quote]

This is a very important point: I believe that Christ did take on human nature from His mother - yet He was without sin. He could not have overcome sin and death without doing it in the weakness of human flesh.

To say that Christ did not have sinful nature is to say that He was somehow different from us - He shared our nature: otherwise there would be no hope for the world if He was of some different nature?

[quote]She is the Mediatrix of all graces; and in this way, precisely: Because the Second Person of the Holy Trinity [i]Incarnate[/i] is the form willed by the Trinity to be the Redeemer of the human race. That is what Jesus Christ is: The Word made flesh, and in a certain sense, there was no Jesus Christ (but only the Second Person) before He became flesh.. [/quote]

We don't need any 'Mediatrix of all graces'. The salutation from the Angel Gabriel in fact shows that favour/grace was BESTOWED upon her. It was not something she held inherently.

I don't like the word Trinity. though I believe that the Lord Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God - but not three Gods: but One. The word "trinity" It is unbiblical and reduces God. There are the seven Spirits of God, and the "Elohim" ("mighty ones"). The doctrine of the trinity is a reactionary doctrine against blasphemers who were unitarian or believed Jesus to be a good man or something like that.

The doctrine of the trinity only came about to dispel the blasphemies of Docetism, Subordinationism, Arianism, Modalism, Patripassianism, Tritheism, Nestorianism, Appolinarianism, Monarchianism and all the other thousand and one "isms" of mans puerile imaginiation and mind (though beware: all error has [i]some[/i] truth in it - that's why it's so deceptive).

[quote]Surely it isn't too much to go into a church which has a statue in it? Have you talked to Our Lord about this? IMO, maybe you are being attacked by the enemy, for something is trying very hard to keep you from even considering the possibility of sitting in a church which happens to have a statue in it; which you are NOT required to even[b] like [/b]as a non-Catholic, nor EVER required to "adore" as you say, if you WERE a Catholic. [/quote]

Yes it is too much for me to go into a church which has statues in it. It grates on me. Its difficult to explain. I don't want to deliberately be self-willed or anything like that: God knows my heart and that it is from a genuine motive not to break any of His commands.

I haven't really prayed to the Lord in a serious manner - but I have pondered it in my heart with Him and asked Him Lord show me truth.

I am a montheist so I do not believe in a separate deity of supernatural evil (ie: the devil as a supernatural evil being).

[quote]Or you're really at heart, Jewish. I know, you assert no Mosiac law, and etc; but really, your views (and how did you come by them? There seems to be a lot of tradition by which you've learned. Why is your tradition of God and Catholic Tradition is not? ) are reminiscent of Judaism, down to clean and unclean. Do you also follow the lunar cycle for the Sabbath?
[/quote]

that's very perceptive of you - I am not Jewish, and I certainly do not observe any of the Jewish days and months, but I am interested in the Feasts of the Lord because they all point to our Lord Jesus Christ. He would have celebrated Passover, and Tabernacles, and Shabbat etc etc. He grew up in a Jewish home: so if you love someone, it's ogod to get to know the culture they grew up in. Our Lord was Jewish, so He would have celebrated all the Jewish feasts of the Lord.

They reveal a lot about Him.

[quote]Or, you're too smart and stubborn for your own good.
[/quote]

I hope not. Like I said earlier somewhere, the older I get, the more I realise that I know very, very little. I know nothing.

Just like Job. God asked Job 84 questions, and Job couldn't answer a single one! Neither can I.

[quote]The one thing the Catholic Church has, which has not yet been brought up, is her miracles. You may wish to look into them; sure, God only knows the heart of a man which "man" might praise, tho' it be rotten. Quite a few of the saints were hated by the world. Happily, the fruit of their good works also took place in the form of miracles, so that we would have some way to verify the truth.

[/quote]

How do I know they're not fake?

[quote]If we "receive the love of the truth that we might be saved".[/quote]

That's what all churches say. How do I know what is truth? One church says "this is turth" another says "No, this is truth" yet another says "No, this is truth".

I no longer know what is truth - except the Lord Jesus: He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I have to cling to that, or there's nothing.

[quote] It is a sad existence when we don't know our mother, the Queen Mother of the King of the Jews. [/quote]

It is not a sad existence for me. I cherish Mary in my heart and hold her dear in my affections; but I do not need to pray to her. I can go direct to her Son who alone is the Mediator. Mary is not the mediator. She would be horrified I'm sure, as a Jewess, if she knew that millions of Catholics have graven images of her all over the world and kneel down to pray to her.

The Babylonians baked cakes to the "Queen of Heaven" - the veneration of mary seems no better to me than that. I think she would be horrified.

She would want all the glory to go to her Son: when men honour the Son, then the Father is honoured.

I read John 5 today as part of my daily reading planner, and it spoke to me that it what I believe is right, and veneration of Mary would be totally wrong.

I examine these things however, because I realise that we can all have mind sets.

Mind sets are a terrible thing and blind people to the truth.

I never realised that I had mind sets (I have had them, and probably still do have them) until I read a book called "Father and Son" by Edmund Gosse; a fascinating book about a father-son relationship in a Plymouth brethren home.

It revealed a lot to me about mind sets.

I do not want to have mind sets.

Therefore I must examine the ones I have/might have: but I can only do this by Scripture. If I use Catholic church tradition I am in danger of examine my mind-set by the plumb-line of another man's mind-set.

Scripture is the only plumb-line I can use to determine truth.

Sorry for the length of this post too Donna!!