MARIOLATRY

[Archangel]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:39 PM']but paying homage to dead people troubles my conscience.[/quote]
I guess you don't celebrate Memorial Day or things like that, huh?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Apr 7 2005, 03:54 AM'] Relying on only Scripture and your interpretation of it is your stumbling block. The Church teaches us through it interpretation of Scripture [i]and[/i] Tradition about venerating Mary and the saints. [/quote]
Priscilla, you must understand that catholics think the church to be infallible. Hence, they never question the church or its interpetations.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 7 2005, 08:55 AM'] Priscilla, you must understand that catholics think the church to be infallible. Hence, they never question the church or its interpetations. [/quote]
Melchisedec, I think that is an oversimplified and narrow interpretation of what we mean by infallible. It is not only the Catholic's right, but one's duty to engage the Magesterium on an intellectual level. I am sure that you are aware that the pope is infallible only on matters of morals and faith. That is not even exercised that often. Other matters such as disciplene and what not, may be questioned or challange, and they have been. I believe that the document Gaudium et Spes deals with this issue of engaging what the Magesterium decalres on intellectual grounds. We as Catholics are not called to be blind sheep, but to have both faith and reason. Regardless, this does not seem like the thread to discuss this.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 7 2005, 09:09 AM'] Melchisedec, I think that is an oversimplified and narrow interpretation of what we mean by infallible. It is not only the Catholic's right, but one's duty to engage the Magesterium on an intellectual level. I am sure that you are aware that the pope is infallible only on matters of morals and faith. That is not even exercised that often. Other matters such as disciplene and what not, may be questioned or challange, and they have been. I believe that the document Gaudium et Spes deals with this issue of engaging what the Magesterium decalres on intellectual grounds. We as Catholics are not called to be blind sheep, but to have both faith and reason. Regardless, this does not seem like the thread to discuss this. [/quote]
I think its definitely pertinent to the discussion. Considering that the church is the infallible authority on faith, is it not? She is asking where is the scriptual proof for the veneration of mary. The response is that it is part of the church's tradition, which makes it 100% true, end of discussion. Her interpetation no matter how well she defends it, will never be considered accurate in the light of the infalliblity of the church.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 7 2005, 09:29 AM'] I think its definitely pertinent to the discussion. Considering that the church is the infallible authority on faith, is it not? She is asking where is the scriptual proof for the veneration of mary. The response is that it is part of the church's tradition, which makes it 100% true, end of discussion. Her interpetation no matter how well she defends it, will never be considered accurate in the light of the infalliblity of the church. [/quote]
I think you misunderstood what I meant by discussing that. I was referring to the part about Catholics never questioning the Church. I do indeed see that as disgressing from the topic at hand. The fact that it is the Church's Tradition does not make it the end of the discussion, it leads to another topic. Tradition.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Apr 7 2005, 03:58 AM'] I guess you don't celebrate Memorial Day or things like that, huh? [/quote]
It depends. We organised a Holocaust Memorial Day Service this year on Jan 27th - and it was OK. Not really my cup of tea - but it helps people to grieve and is a witness to the Jews that we stand with them. Seven people (incl the Lord Mayor of the town where we live) lit seven candles - 6 for the 6 million Jews who died, and 1 for those non-Jews who also died - not only in the holocaust - but also in other acts of genocide.

But we didn't pray to the dead people and ask them to intercede for us or anything; we were acknowledging before God the fact that we are sinners, and we prayed such a thing would never happen again.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 7 2005, 08:55 AM'] Priscilla, you must understand that catholics think the church to be infallible. Hence, they never question the church or its interpetations. [/quote]
So I gather.

I don't care much for tradition myself - neither did our Lord Jesus.

It can get very "man-made". And what is one persons pleasurable tradition is another person's poison.

I'm snookered: if I wanted to become a Catholic I couldn't because their tradition (particularly Mariolatry) troubles my conscience.

[Archangel]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 7 2005, 08:19 AM']So I gather.

I don't care much for tradition myself - neither did our Lord Jesus.

It can get very "man-made".  And what is one persons pleasurable tradition is another person's poison.

I'm snookered:  if I wanted to become a Catholic I couldn't because their tradition (particularly Mariolatry) troubles my conscience.[/quote]
Sola Scriptura is a man-made tradition.

[jezic]

Jesus did care for tradition.

He went to the temple for the major holidays and celebrated the Passover in Jerusalem.

The Sacred Tradition in the Catholic Church means the stuff that happened before any of the new testament was written. It is the preservation of scripture in action.

Is there anything against asking people to pray for your salvation in the Bible?

[jezic]

better question, what about mariolotry bugs you?

You have said already u don't like praying to dead people. Is that the only reason.

If you are just praying you are not venerating her or worshiping her. If you were then praying for people that are alive would be the same thing. Yet, i think you said before you don't have a problem praying for other people.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Apr 7 2005, 03:50 PM'] Sola Scriptura is a man-made tradition. [/quote]
I don't know what Sola Scriptura is. I'm not very au-faith with Catholic terminology - forgive me. Is it "only Scripture"?

If so I like that tradition because I can be confident that the commandments in Scripture is pleasing to God.

[jezic]

It is about an understanding of the bible as the only theological authority Basically it means only scripture, but i think it implies more than that.

[Priscilla]

[quote]Jesus did care for tradition.

He went to the temple for the major holidays and celebrated the Passover in Jerusalem.
[/quote]

As a male Jew, Jesus was required to keep three major "Feasts of the Lord" in Jerusalem. They were not man-made traditions, but were "Feasts of the Lord". They were "Biblical" in the sense that they were in the Scriptures which our Lord knew and loved.

It was the Pharisaical traditions which were not in Scripture which the Lord hated.

[quote]Is there anything against asking people to pray for your salvation in the Bible?[/quote]

How can a dead person pray for my salvation?

[jezic]

You are getting ahead of me a littel bit,

and yes they are God given. Isn't Jesus God? Can't he make new traditions then?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='jezic' date='Apr 7 2005, 04:05 PM'] better question, what about mariolotry bugs you?

You have said already u don't like praying to dead people. Is that the only reason.

If you are just praying you are not venerating her or worshiping her. If you were then praying for people that are alive would be the same thing. Yet, i think you said before you don't have a problem praying for other people. [/quote]
I consider it to be idolatry.

I love and respect the mother or our Lord: and I hold her dear in my affections. But to kneel down before a statue of her and pray to her, when I know full well that she is neither omniscient nor omnipresent, would be to me idolatry.

I believe in One God. Mary is not God. She is not omniscient. She is not omnipresent. Therefore she cannot hear the millions of prayers which go up to her anyhow (besides the fact that I believe she is dead awaiting the resurrection like every other saint that ever lived).

I also believe she had other children. I do not believe that they were just "cousins". I believe our Lord had brothers and sisters. He lived a normal family life.

Yes I'm happy to pray for living people if they are in need: but I couldn't pray TO dead people, nor FOR dead people (theya re dead - no amount of praying by me is going to alter their judgement).