MARIOLATRY

[Priscilla]

dUSt - I should add that I don't really see myself as a "Protestant" as such: there are parts of the protestant mind-set which I abhor and think are horrid. Protestantism is very divisive and sectarian. So I don't see myself as a prot either.

[sweetpea316]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 5 2005, 06:38 AM'] dUSt - I should add that I don't really see myself as a "Protestant" as such: there are parts of the protestant mind-set which I abhor and think are horrid. Protestantism is very divisive and sectarian. So I don't see myself as a prot either. [/quote]
I can relate to this also. Though I know that I'm a member of a protestant church, the word protestant kid of rubs me the wrong way lately. I mean, it is so vague. There are so many protestant churches now, who believe such a variety of things! I know that there are certain things that I would never believe that other churches labeled protestant would and do believe. Even within my own denomination there are different synods with some random different beliefs that set each other apart and have caused splits, and all of the division and whatnot gets to me. That is one thing that I like about the Catholic Church actually, is the history that is behind it and how it has stayed like it is (for the most part) throughout all the years. Wow, I just realized that I am totally off of the topic of this thread. Sorry about that!

But yes, thanks to everyone who has posted about this topic of Mary and idols and whatnot. I came across this thread this morning and found it to be very educational, because I myself had some misconceptions that have been cleared up now. Thanks phamily!

Heh...random comment by Rebecca... I was called a 'Catholic lite' last night. People have been asking me if I'm Catholic a lot lately...but I just smile and take it as a compliment. Is that odd? Perhaps I give off a Catholic vibe or something...? I dunno. Anyways, that's enough rambling for one morning. God bless.

[IamCatholic]

Priscila, God comanded graven images of angels to be made in the Temple, as I said. Obviously you are misunderstanding the command against graven images.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='IamCatholic' date='Apr 5 2005, 11:27 AM'] Priscila, God comanded graven images of angels to be made in the Temple, as I said. Obviously you are misunderstanding the command against graven images. [/quote]
The "graven images" you speak of (Cherubim) were only seen by the High Priest once a year. They were not on display for all to see - otherwise the Israelites probably would have gone a-whoring after it and started to offer incense to the Cherubim.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='sweetpea316' date='Apr 5 2005, 09:02 AM'] That is one thing that I like about the Catholic Church actually, is the history that is behind it and how it has stayed like it is (for the most part) throughout all the years. [/quote]
Yes there are many things I admire about the Catholic Church too.

I'm sure there are probably factions within the Catholic Church, but I generally like the way they all come together to remember the Lord's sacrifice. All are sinners before Him. Protestants get so tetchy sometimes and they won't break bread with each other: it's as if they're saying "Christ didn't die for you" - just because they disagree over some little doctrine. It's a bit self-righteous.

I started to read a book called "The Path to Rome" and was interested in some of the testimonies in there, and I like the idea of one Holy Catholic (universal) Apostolic Church - just that with the sad history of the Catholic Church one wonders about it.

Anyhow to get back to the topic: poeple like me who have a weak conscience when it comes to Mary-veneration are snookered: even if I wanted to become a Catholic my conscience would be offended in every Catholic Church I went because they've all got Mary statues and pray to Mary. So there's no hope for me is there?

[Brother Adam]

Perhaps you need to form your will to God's will instead of trying to make God form his will to yours. A conscience is something that is either properly formed or it is not. If statues of Mary offend you, then it is your conscience that is il-formed on the issue. This isn't to be an insult towards you, just the plain moral fact of the matter. If the concept of sex in marriage only insults them, then their conscience is ill-formed.

And the history of the Church is not poor. History is in the eye of the beholder and most of the facts of the middle ages are sorely misrepresented or even bold faced lies.

I like how you pose your question "So there's no hope for me?" You recognize in your question that the Catholic Church is where hope lies. And it is true. The Church is the bride of Christ and cannot be ignored any more than the Scriptures can be ignored. There is indeed HOPE for anyone seeking the truth and remaining intellectually honest.

Careful though. You just may end up joining the Tiber swim team. There are millions of us.

[jezic]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 5 2005, 05:19 AM'] A Transfiguration is a Transfiguration: I believe it is possible (all things are possible with God) to be Transfigured into the future Kingdom: our Lord Jesus needed this to strengthen Him to face the ordeal of the Crucifixion. [/quote]
Yes he did. I was thinking more of the people who joined him. I believe they were Moses and Elijah. My question was if they are dead or sleeping, how could they appear alive and talking?

(To make it wierd though, Jesus was still alive then so according to Catholic doctrine, shouldn't they be sleeping as well *The gates of Heaven should still be closed until he rises and ascends into Heaven* ? How was Elijah taken to Heaven in a chariot of fire if the door was closed?)

[dUSt]

[quote]even if I wanted to become a Catholic my conscience would be offended in every Catholic Church I went because they've all got Mary statues and pray to Mary. So there's no hope for me is there?[/quote]
If your conscience is offended by people growing closer to Christ in the way that best works for them, then I would have to say that your conscience is not well formed.

If you look at the veneration of Mary for what it is, an attempt to know Jesus Christ better, then I think it would offend God if you denied this. It is only if you think Mary, statues, etc are obstacles to know Christ that your conscience would be offended.

But, I could make an argument (although at first glance you may deem it absurd), that the Bible itself is an obstacle to know Christ, because of the way people use it against eachother, and because of it's complex and often confusing teachings. Should I be offended when I see other people read the Bible? No. Should I stop reading the Bible? Of course not. I must continue to use ALL of the gifts God has given me to grow closer to Him. The Bible, His church, His saints, etc.

God bless.

[point5]

HOLLA!!!!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 5 2005, 01:53 PM'] Yes there are many things I admire about the Catholic Church too.

I'm sure there are probably factions within the Catholic Church, but I generally like the way they all come together to remember the Lord's sacrifice. All are sinners before Him. Protestants get so tetchy sometimes and they won't break bread with each other: it's as if they're saying "Christ didn't die for you" - just because they disagree over some little doctrine. It's a bit self-righteous.

I started to read a book called "The Path to Rome" and was interested in some of the testimonies in there, and I like the idea of one Holy Catholic (universal) Apostolic Church - just that with the sad history of the Catholic Church one wonders about it.

Anyhow to get back to the topic: poeple like me who have a weak conscience when it comes to Mary-veneration are snookered: even if I wanted to become a Catholic my conscience would be offended in every Catholic Church I went because they've all got Mary statues and pray to Mary. So there's no hope for me is there? [/quote]
Just a picky point - we are the Catholic Church. period. There are 22 different branches of the church, Roman being the biggest. But to refer to us as just Roman Catholics leaves out all the Eastern Catholics and they get really annoyed. We are called catholic [katholicos =universal] because we are the one universal church founded by Jesus Christ. He only founded one. So calling us Catholic Church is really incorrect.

There is no sad history for us to be ashamed about. People have erred in various ways, but the Church is the spotless bride of Christ and cannot err. If she would err it would mean Jesus lied and the gates of hell had prevailed. It is also a great error to go back in time and hold the the past hostage to the different standards of today.

Why are you still offended by statues? Are you offended by the Cross? They are pieces of art that represent people who have gone to the Lord. If I kneel in front of a statue or a cross I am not kneeling to a piece of plaster but to what they represent. I am paying homage to a hero or heroine of God. If you are offended by homage to a hero of God [which is indirectly homage to God who made the hero] then you offend God.

Since the Church has used statues and pictures and icons since the time of Christ, and the jews used images before we did, there must be nothing wrong with images, but with what you have been taught about what they actually mean.
Honoring what a statues represents is not the same as worshipping a piece of wood or stone itself. The aborigines of Australia worship a big rock. I honor the saint and the God who made them when I kneel or bow before a statue.

Surrounding yourself with statues or sacred pictures or icons is surrounding yourself with daily reminders of your future home. It is a reminder that they are where you someday hope to be.

[theculturewarrior]

[hijack] The cross is an anti-semitic symbol only insofar as the King of the Jews hung upon it. But it proclaims salvation for everyone, foremost, the Jews. [/hijack]

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 5 2005, 03:12 PM'] Perhaps you need to form your will to God's will instead of trying to make God form his will to yours. A conscience is something that is either properly formed or it is not. If statues of Mary offend you, then it is your conscience that is il-formed on the issue. This isn't to be an insult towards you, just the plain moral fact of the matter. If the concept of sex in marriage only insults them, then their conscience is ill-formed.

[/quote]
The problem is Brother Adam is that I see nothing in Scripture to say that venerating Mary or the saints is His will.

This is a big problem for me.

There is nothing in Scripture which says "pray to Mary and you will be saved" - salvation in through faith in Christ alone.

As for my conscience being ill-formed: all I can say to that is I'm glad God will be my Judge!! No wonder King David said "Let em fall into the hands of God rather than men" !!!

OK - so let's assume then my conscience IS ill-formed: what does the Apostle Paul say about people like me? He says to you (whose conscience is well-formed) DO NOT STUMBLE your brother for whom Christ died.

The statues and icons are a stumbling block to me and cause me to sin in my conscience before God. So there's no way I can worship in a Catholic Church.

I do not want to be self-willed, or go against the will of God. I would consider it going against the will of God to kneel before and venerate Mary or any of the saints (I consider all true believers as saints anyhow - saints are people like you and, hopefully me, who love the Lord and serve Him).

There are many saints i admire (Godly people who I have known and who have fallen asleep in Christ) but I could no more kneel in front of the photo and pray to them than fly in the air.

They are dead; they are not omniscient nor are they omnipresent - which they must be if you believe they can hear your prayers.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 5 2005, 04:02 PM'] If your conscience is offended by people growing closer to Christ in the way that best works for them, then I would have to say that your conscience is not well formed.

If you look at the veneration of Mary for what it is, an attempt to know Jesus Christ better, then I think it would offend God if you denied this. It is only if you think Mary, statues, etc are obstacles to know Christ that your conscience would be offended.

But, I could make an argument (although at first glance you may deem it absurd), that the Bible itself is an obstacle to know Christ, because of the way people use it against eachother, and because of it's complex and often confusing teachings. Should I be offended when I see other people read the Bible? No. Should I stop reading the Bible? Of course not. I must continue to use ALL of the gifts God has given me to grow closer to Him. The Bible, His church, His saints, etc.

God bless. [/quote]
Some good points - I would partly agree that some Christians use the bible against each other and yes, almost idolise it to the point of breaking fellowship with others through it.

About my conscience being ill-formed; well I've already replied to that in the post before this to Brother Adam. God will have to judge me on it.

Besides, I have known Catholics pray to Mary and been totally hard-hearted and cruel. I do not generalise and say all Catholics are like this; but praying to Mary does not necessarily bring you closer to Christ in itself.

I am closest to our Lord when I have a personal relationship with Him by prayer [b]to[/b] Him and [b]through[/b] Him to Our Father in Heaven.

I believe only Christ and His Father are omniscient and omnipresent.

Mary and "the saints" are not, surely?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 5 2005, 05:34 PM'] Just a picky point - we are the Catholic Church. period. There are 22 different branches of the church, Roman being the biggest. But to refer to us as just Roman Catholics leaves out all the Eastern Catholics and they get really annoyed. We are called catholic [katholicos =universal] because we are the one universal church founded by Jesus Christ. He only founded one. So calling us Catholic Church is really incorrect.

[/quote]
Thanks - I stand corrected. I didn't know that.

[quote]There is no sad history for us to be ashamed about.[/quote]

I disagree - the Catholic Church has a shameful history. But I still believe there are people who will be saved from it, as our Lord is able to save to the uttermost. But the evildoers in the Church will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

But hey - you can get false brethren EVERYWHERE. I've know of quite a few in the non-conformist churches believe me!


[quote]Why are you still offended by statues? Are you offended by the Cross? They are pieces of art that represent people who have gone to the Lord. If I kneel in front of a statue or a cross I am not kneeling to a piece of plaster but to what they represent.  I am paying homage to a hero or heroine of God. If you are offended by homage to a hero of God [which is indirectly homage to God who made the hero] then you offend God.
[/quote]

I only pay homage to God and His Christ. For me to pay homage to anyone else would be a sin to me. I am happy to show honour to whom is due honour (such as the Queen or whatever - but she is alive), but paying homage to dead people troubles my conscience.

I have thought about it quite a lot. I couldn'g get on the phorum yesterday because the webpage was unavailable, so I spent time thinking about it and whether I could do it, but I couldn't. In my conscience i would be sinning against God by paying homage to the creature, rather than the Creator.

[quote]Surrounding yourself with statues or sacred pictures or icons is surrounding yourself with daily reminders of your future home. It is a reminder that they are where you someday hope to be.[/quote]

I don't know that: I don't know what type of life they really lived; they might have seemed all sweetness and light to other people, but inside they may have been rotten - only God can judge the living and the dead. I could not possibly begin to judge them when I do not know what their lives were like.

I believe all beleivers are saints; people like you for instance, ordinary people who love and serve the Lord in righteousness. Most of them are unseen, unsung heroes which only god knows about.

[Archangel]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 6 2005, 11:24 PM']The problem is Brother Adam is that I see nothing in Scripture to say that venerating Mary or the saints is His will.

This is a big problem for me.[/quote]
Relying on only Scripture and your interpretation of it is your stumbling block. The Church teaches us through it interpretation of Scripture [i]and[/i] Tradition about venerating Mary and the saints.