MARIOLATRY

[Thy Geekdom Come]

The 1 Thess. quote does not conflict with the Church's teachings. The dead will be raised and caught up with the Lord...in their bodies. They will have been with Him already in their souls, but souls are only half of humanity...they will re-enter their bodies and resurrect and be with the Lord in body and soul from then on, where they had been with Him in spirit alone before the resurrection.

This explains the "Bosom of Abraham"...although they could not be with the Lord at that point, because the gates of Heaven were not yet open, they were all gathered together in spirit. Christ would not allude to the Bosom of Abraham unless it was a real place.

[Fidei Defensor]

At Christmas, protestants and catholics alike like to display the nativity to remember the birth of the Lord. Are they worshipping the nativity? No. They are using it to remind them and give visual to something that they have only read, and cant see.

Catholics extend this to all year around, with saints and such. We want to be reminded and have a visual of great people whom we cannot see, but we can still talk to in heaven. We dont talk to the statue as if it were magical, we only use it to give us visual of what is truely in heaven that we are talking to.

Another aspect is what the Lord has said [quote]John 6 "53 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."[/quote]

Eating the flesh of the savior - the Eucharist - is the ultimate act of worship and the way to salvation.

Do we eat the flesh of Mary? No.
Only Jesus, the Lord

So, to most who do not know of the Eucharist, we seem to treat Mary like they treat Jesus. But with the flesh and blood of the Lord available to us, we are doing what he said and gaining eternal life from his flesh and blood, and worshipping him as he said.

Mary is honored, Jesus is worshipped.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Priscilla, God Bless, and the Peace of the Risen Lord be with you,


If you might suffer a few of my comments, I pray they will help you in your understanding of the Catholic faith:

[b]Concerning Graven Images[/b]

Priscilla, it seems that you have a mistaken understanding of the prohibition against graven images given to the Isrealites.

First, it was not a universal ban on graven images as such - if it was, God would have been contradicting himself when he ordered the Isrealites to carve the images of the cherubim onto the Ark of the Covenant.

Second, we must always look at [i]why[/i] God commands what He commands. He never works without purpose, and all that He does is wise. Regarding graven images, the purpose is twofold. First, to set his people aside from the gentiles and other nations of the earth, who made graven images of their Gods and paid homage and worship to them.

But there is a deeper reason as well. The God of Israel is the Invisible God. He is beyond all imagining and beyond all portrayal. Thus, any attempt of man to create an image of God would not do justice or service to God, but rather, would be an insult to Him, who is pure Spirit, and has no form.

But as Christians, we must look at how the Incarnation affects our theology. In the Incarnation, God took on flesh. The Invisible God became visible and the Unportrayable One portrayed himself to us in flesh and blood. Thus, it is acceptable to make an image of Christ because Christ, who is human, can be portrayed in art.

You have made a claim that a photograph is somehow acceptable while an icon or a statue is not. This however, is an absurd claim, and if you wish to be intellectually honest, you must either prohibit photographs (as do some Muslim sects, as well as other religious groups) or you must allow for icons and statuary. The reason for this is because the intent of the art, whether it be a 2-Dimensional photograph/picture or a 3-Dimensional statue, is to represent a person or thing. The accuracy of the representation is of no consequence - if it were, you would have to say that a good picture is permissible, while a poor or damaged picture is not, which is absurd.

So we see that images of Mary and the Saints do not offend the prohibition against graven images, because they are not intended for worship, while we see that the prohibition against portraying God is not offended when we protray Jesus, because he is the invisible-made-visible.


[b]To jezic[/b]

The First Epistle of St. Paul to the Thessalonians was written concerning those who died after Christ.

The problem in Thessalonica at the time was that, because an imminent and immediate eschaton was in the minds and thoughts of the people, they worried about the fate of those believers among them who died before Christ's Second Coming. Paul was writing to ease their fears and assure them that those who die having persevered in grace will indeed share in the Glory of Christ and Everlasting Life. This is why the Apostle tells of the dead rising first, and THEN the living being raised into the air to meet the coming Christ.


Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 03:44 PM'] We'll have to agree to disagree then. I believe the Bible is way superior to the traditions of men or any fallible Pope. Sorry! [/quote]
I don't know if tradition is "superior" to Scripture or not, but I will point this out --

1. The Catholic Church put the Bible together.
2. The Catholic Church had Tradition and tradition before the Bible.
3. Scripture was spoken Tradition before it was put together to make up the Bible.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 03:44 PM'] We'll have to agree to disagree then. I believe the Bible is way superior to the traditions of men or any fallible Pope. Sorry! [/quote]
Sacred Tradition is the Tradition that is followed in the church, not traditions of men.

[Dave]

Priscilla, I looked at your profile, and I couldn't help but notice that you list painting and other art stuff as some of your interests. If you painted a picture of, say, a rosebush, then would you consider that a graven image? Why or why not?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 4 2005, 04:35 PM'] Oh, not to mention the bronze serpent... [/quote]
That's a very good example Raphael - the bronze serpent is a type of Christ: "LOOK and live" - but when the Israelites started to burn incense to the bronze serpent it became idolatry and it was a snare to them.

It was only a piece of brass.

"Hezekiah removed the high places, and brake the images, and BRAKE IN PIECES THE BRASEN SEPRENT WHICH MOSES HAD MADE; for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan (A Piece of Brass)" 2 Kings 18:4

[Priscilla]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 4 2005, 04:41 PM'] Priscilla, thank you for remaining civil and continuing to dialogue with us. I believe that open dialogue between people of different faiths helps all of us grow closer to God.

[/quote]
Not at all - I think it's all of you who are being civil with me: a witness to your faith and love. I believe dialogue is good too: but I hope I have offended anyone: I apologise if I have. But I'm interested in this topic because I've obviously got a lot of misunderstandings as to how Catholics view it.

[quote]I am looking forward to you answering the point I brought up about the Statue of Liberty and Lincoln Memorial. Are you against these things existing?
[/quote]

They're OK in themselves I guess: it's not a symbol which Americans flock to to kiss or venerate, and neither do they hold any sense of superstition - but rather they are making a statement about the politics of the country?

[quote]Also, if you don't mind, what type of a Christian are you? Are you associated with a denomination or do you have more of a "personal" religion, and rely on your own intellect to believe what you believe? I ask because I've never met a Christian that was opposed to displaying a cross before.
[/quote]

I guess I'm what you call a "Heinz 57 Variety" Christian!!! I come from a fairly secular home (my father is a 'lapsed' Catholic, my mother isn't anything, but she believes in God and prays).

When I was 15 studying the synoptic Gospels for 'O' level Religious Education I was touched by the parable fo the Sower: especially when jesus said "He that has ears to hear, let him hear". I wanted "ears that hear" and I wanted so much to be the "good ground". So I became a Christian and joined a Charismatic Methodist church where I was baptised by full immersion (because I wanted to be baptised the way our Lord Jesus was) in a Baptist church. I also received the "baptism in the Holy Spirit" and "spoke in tongues" (I don't know what most Catholics think about that).

Anyhow, that's what happened to me. but then I got disillusioned with the Church and starting seeking and seeking. I even went to a Serbian Orthodox church for a while - but that didn't make sense. Then I was confirmed in a High Anglican Church: but I only stuck it there for three years. I never made any lasting friendships there - it was ritual and religion. I was a Sunday School teacher in the Methodist Chruch first of all, then later in the Anglican church.

Still seeking I came upon the Christadelphians and went to their Bible Studies: but they wanted me to get baptised again (by full immersion) so I wouldn't join them either.

I then drifted away somewhat - but I always believed in the Lord. Then about the time fo the Gulf War I thought Jesus will be coming back soon and I'm not ready. So I joined the Christadelphian Church for 3 years before I married a Christian who was a Baptist. (I joined the Christadelphians because I wanted a Church that understood the importance of Israel in God's Plan and purpose for the earth: also our Lord Jesus is Jewish).

Since I married 11 years ago, my husband and I have been to various churches (we were members of the United Reformed Church for five years) and now we don't go anywhere. But we are closely linked with a charity called "Christian Friends of Israel" (which has had close links with the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary: what a wonderful blessing they have been to the Jews!). This is their web address if you're interested:

Jerusalem Office: [url="http://www.cfijerusalem.org/"]http://www.cfijerusalem.org/[/url]

UK Office: [url="http://www.cfi.org.uk/"]http://www.cfi.org.uk/[/url]

(There's also one in USA - just type Christian Friends of Israel into Google and you will bring it up somewhere)

I hope that gives you an idea.

About wearing crosses: many Christians will not wear a cross nowadays because of the association of anti-semitism (the swastiker is a broken cross, and the Crusades have the cross as a symbol). Many Jewish Christians will not wear one either.

The Lord bless you too.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='jezic' date='Apr 4 2005, 04:45 PM'] Question for Priscilla,

What about the miracles like the Transfiguration with dead people, how could they not be in Heaven and yet appear on earth alive? [/quote]
A Transfiguration is a Transfiguration: I believe it is possible (all things are possible with God) to be Transfigured into the future Kingdom: our Lord Jesus needed this to strengthen Him to face the ordeal of the Crucifixion.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 4 2005, 04:51 PM'] The 1 Thess. quote does not conflict with the Church's teachings. The dead will be raised and caught up with the Lord...in their bodies. They will have been with Him already in their souls, but souls are only half of humanity...they will re-enter their bodies and resurrect and be with the Lord in body and soul from then on, where they had been with Him in spirit alone before the resurrection.

This explains the "Bosom of Abraham"...although they could not be with the Lord at that point, because the gates of Heaven were not yet open, they were all gathered together in spirit. Christ would not allude to the Bosom of Abraham unless it was a real place. [/quote]
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I do not believe man possesses immortality. I believe it is conditional.

It was Satan's first lie: "You shall not die".

The Hebrew word for "soul" is "nephesh" and simply means "breathing frame".

As far as I can tell, there were some early Church Fathers who also believed that immortality was conditional.

If you type "Conditional Immortality" into Google, it will bring up a lot of sites which believe this. I am not the only one!!!

[Priscilla]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Apr 4 2005, 05:02 PM'] At Christmas, protestants and catholics alike like to display the nativity to remember the birth of the Lord. Are they worshipping the nativity? No. They are using it to remind them and give visual to something that they have only read, and cant see.

Catholics extend this to all year around, with saints and such. We want to be reminded and have a visual of great people whom we cannot see, but we can still talk to in heaven. We dont talk to the statue as if it were magical, we only use it to give us visual of what is truely in heaven that we are talking to.

Another aspect is what the Lord has said

Eating the flesh of the savior - the Eucharist - is the ultimate act of worship and the way to salvation.

Do we eat the flesh of Mary? No.
Only Jesus, the Lord

So, to most who do not know of the Eucharist, we seem to treat Mary like they treat Jesus. But with the flesh and blood of the Lord available to us, we are doing what he said and gaining eternal life from his flesh and blood, and worshipping him as he said.

Mary is honored, Jesus is worshipped. [/quote]
Very good point - yes I did realise that and our Lord said "Whoever comes to me I will in no wise cast out".

I must say there are many Christians who do NOT celebrate either Christmas or Easter because they become aware of the pagan roots of those festivals and then it troubles their consciences.

I'm afraid I see the nativity figures as "Teraphin" ("household gods") and I personally don't like them and find them rather twee.

Also, nowhere in Scripture does it say our Lord was born in the "stable" - the word "stable" cannot be found (this was a BIG shcock to me!!). Also the wise men didn't find the Lord Jesus until He was a small child (He was probably about 2 years old)

[Priscilla]

[quote]So we see that images of Mary and the Saints do not offend the prohibition against graven images, because they are not intended for worship, while we see that the prohibition against portraying God is not offended when we protray Jesus, because he is the invisible-made-visible.
[/quote]

Thanks for your post - Peace be to you also from our Lord and Sviour.

I don't mind images of the Lord so much: it's the statues of Mary I find difficult. But maybe its a bit like eating meats offered to idols then? If it causes me to sin in my conscience before God, then I must not do it: bot for others it is not a sin.

Problem is, if it's a sin to me it's extremely difficult to cope with going into a Catholic Church for worship.

I went to my Uncle's funderal once in a Catholic church: I could cope with that (though obviously I couldn't part-take of the Emblems), and once I ventured into a Catholic church in the French Alps in Isola: but I couldn't get out quick enough because I didn't like it. Perhaps its a matter of personal choice.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Apr 4 2005, 07:41 PM'] I don't know if tradition is "superior" to Scripture or not, but I will point this out --

1. The Catholic Church put the Bible together.
2. The Catholic Church had Tradition and tradition before the Bible.
3. Scripture was spoken Tradition before it was put together to make up the Bible. [/quote]
The Jews wrote the Bible (apart from maybe Luke who was a Gentile).

The Bible is a Jewish Book from beginning to end.

Jews would find Catholicism grates against the commands of God in many respects, though I'm sure their have been some Jews who are Catholics.

Jewish oral tradition would have existed, but when it came to be written down men were moved by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is written therefore by the Holy Spirit (ultimately - through humans) and is God inspired.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Apr 4 2005, 07:51 PM'] Sacred Tradition is the Tradition that is followed in the church, not traditions of men. [/quote]
That's what the Pharisees believed: but our Lord called them "Hypocrites!!" for following their "sacred traditions" which ultimately used people (indulgences would be a good example of how Church tradition took advantage of poor people).

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Dave' date='Apr 4 2005, 07:52 PM'] Priscilla, I looked at your profile, and I couldn't help but notice that you list painting and other art stuff as some of your interests. If you painted a picture of, say, a rosebush, then would you consider that a graven image? Why or why not? [/quote]
A painting is not a graven image is it?

I don't mind some sculpture in some instances. I have a nice ornament on my mantelpiece of geese, and it doesn't trouble me.

But there is a difference between art and idols.

A religious statue carries with it more than just an art-form. It is the behavioural practicies which go with the veneration of the idol which I find difficult.

But each to hiw own I guess.