MARIOLATRY

[Priscilla]

[quote name='IamCatholic' date='Apr 4 2005, 01:44 PM'] Okay, I do not really want to go into this too much because it is such a basic fact--all Christians from the very beginning have venerated Saints,

[/quote]
No they have not. A lot were burnt at the stake because they wouldn't. Weren't they?

[quote]The burden is not on Catholics (because we are doing what everyone has done throughout history) but on the others (Protestants) who have not followed tradition. Now, it is clear from the Bible, which is actually subordinate to Tradition[/quote]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I believe the Bible is way superior to the traditions of men or any fallible Pope. Sorry!

[quote]that we are allowed to have statutes and to venerate people other than God. Not only is it allowed, it is something that is necessary (or at least something that is good to do), according to the Bible. [/quote]

No it is not good according to the Bible. Graven images are not allowed: dumb idols cannot hear, speak or walk. God commanded the Israelites to tear down idols (Deut 7:5) and

"YOU SHALL NOT MAKE YOURSELF A CARVED IMAGE [b]OR ANY LIKENESS OF ANYTHING IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH[/b] BENEATH OR IN THE WATERS UNDER THE EARTH; " Exodus 20:4

"YOU MUST MAKE NO IDOLS; you must set up NEITHER CARVED IMAGE nor standing-stone, SET UP NO SCULPTURED STONE IN YOUR LAND" (Leviticus 26:1)

"You shall not make yourself a CARVED IMAGE or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath" Duet 5:8

Has God changed? It is still an abomination to Him to make carved images and kiss them and bow down before them surely?

[quote] To say that having and venerating statues is idol worship would be saying that God commanded idolatry.[/quote]

That's my point. He didn't command it - it commanded the opposite surely?

[dUSt]

[quote]But I see Catholics kissing the feet of Mary statues - if that's not worship, what is?[/quote]
I kiss my mom. I don't worship her.
I kiss a picture of my deceased relative. I don't worship it.
I kiss a basketball before I shoot a free throw. I don't worship it.

Kissing something doesn't mean that we worship it.

[quote]What is your definition of worship then?  latreuo (which means to "serve") yes:  but is it not actually "proskuneo" (to prostrate oneself in homage) which is the true worship for God alone?[/quote]

There is only one God. Everyone else is human. Mary, the saints, are all human. We don't worship humans, we worship God alone. You must remember that you are on the outside looking in. It is easier to ask us if we are worshipping statues instead of automatically assuming that we do. If we truly are worshipping statues, then why would we not just say so?

[quote]Why have an idol of Mary at all then if it is not to worship it?[/quote]
Why have a cross in your church? Why wear a cross around your neck?

To remember.

[quote]The Charismatic RCs don't pray or venerate Mary at all:  so it is not an unCatholic thing not to adhere to this tradition?[/quote]
One doesn't have to pray to Mary to be a good Catholic, but I do know charismatic Catholics that do indeed have a devotion to our Blessed Mother.

The goal is to become closer to Christ. If asking for Mary's help brings you closer to Christ, then why not ask?

[quote]And what if you believe Mary is dead (as I do): - we are told in Scripture not to pray to the dead or to even contact them.  I've got a big problem then haven't I?[/quote]
Please show me in scripture where it says that we cannot ask for the prayers of saints and those who are still living in Christ. The Bible I read tells me that we are all one, unified Body, under Jesus Christ. How can we be one body if most of us are dead?

[quote]Surely the Lord Jesus Christ is our Mediator and High Priest? - we don't need any "Queen of Heaven" to intercede for us?  I do not see that we need that in Scripture. [/quote]
Surely He is. I suppose we don't need Mary to intercede, but Christ himself [b]chose[/b] her to intercede by making her the vessel that brought Him into this world. She has already interceded--there's no way to undo what Christ himself already did.

[quote]I believe in the Resurrection of the body when our Lord returns to earth.  If we die before He returns to earth - then we sleep the sleep of death until He awakes us at the last Trumpet.[/quote]
Can you show me "the sleep of death" in Scripture? Is this something other than Heaven or Hell?

[quote]The idea of immortal souls is a pagan one, surely?[/quote]
Is it? Didn't Christ Himself tell us that all who believe in Him will have eternal life?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Apr 4 2005, 03:42 PM'] This topic has been dealt with in another thread, and as I said there:



Taken from: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=26534&view=findpost&p=468796"]Jesus vs. Mary and the Saints, Distractions?[/url] [/quote]
Trouble is - I don't really know any of the saints. ONLY GOD KNOWS WHAT KIND OF LIVES THEY REALLY LIVED.

They may appear to have lived a holy life but in reality they might be full of iniquity. Just because a Pope decides to beatify one, that doesn't mean I follow willy-nilly and start praying to that saint.

I believe all the saints are dead anyhow - awaiting the resurrection. No man has ascended into heave - except the Lord Jesus Christ. Their tombs are with us to this day. They are awaiting the bodily resurrection just like everyone else surely? So that they, WITHOUT US, should not be made perfect (Hebrews 11:40)


but i've enjoyed reading all the replies so far everyone - thanks. Very interesting to listen first hand to your views and the way you see it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 01:49 PM'] Trouble is - I don't really know any of the saints. ONLY GOD KNOWS WHAT KIND OF LIVES THEY REALLY LIVED.

[. . .] [/quote]
Your ignorance is not the point of the thread, God has established His Church and she enlightens our minds on these matters.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 03:44 PM'] No it is not good according to the Bible. Graven images are not allowed: dumb idols cannot hear, speak or walk. God commanded the Israelites to tear down idols (Deut 7:5) and

"YOU SHALL NOT MAKE YOURSELF A CARVED IMAGE [b]OR ANY LIKENESS OF ANYTHING IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH[/b] BENEATH OR IN THE WATERS UNDER THE EARTH; " Exodus 20:4

"YOU MUST MAKE NO IDOLS; you must set up NEITHER CARVED IMAGE nor standing-stone, SET UP NO SCULPTURED STONE IN YOUR LAND" (Leviticus 26:1)

"You shall not make yourself a CARVED IMAGE or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath" Duet 5:8

Has God changed? It is still an abomination to Him to make carved images and kiss them and bow down before them surely? [/quote]
So I assume that you are in favor of getting rid of the statue of liberty, the Lincoln memorial, etc?

Are you also in favor of getting rid of any crosses that have been carved out of stone or wood?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='thicke' date='Apr 4 2005, 01:50 PM']
[/quote]
[quote]Are you worshiping your own mother when you kiss her on the cheek?
[/quote]

No of course not. But then she's a real live person; if she was dead and I made a graven image of her and started to kiss that, it would be idolatry: I would be idolising a dead person.

[quote]Am I also worshiping my mother, wife and deceased grandmother by having pictures of them around?
[/quote]

A graven image is different to a photograph. I get your point: but there's no comparison between a family photo and a statue of Mary - but that's only IMHO.

[quote]Really?  So the Lazarus the beggar and the rich man are just "sleeping" then in the parable from Luke 16 22-31:
[/quote]

It's only a parable - and then one that the Lord takes from the Jews own fables to drive home the point about resurrection: "If one ROSE FROM THE DEAD they still would not believe" (according to Edersheim anyhow and I consider him to be a good authority). Jesus did raise a man called Lazarus from the dead - literally - after He had told this parable.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 04:57 PM'] No of course not. But then she's a real live person; if she was dead and I made a graven image of her and started to kiss that, it would be idolatry: I would be idolising a dead person. [/quote]
There's circular logic here. You're saying that it would be idolatry because you would be idolizing her. How do you define "to idolize"...you say "to give idolatry."

In fact, to idolize would be to put something over God or at His level.

Furthermore, the commandment against graven images isn't a commandment against graven images...it's a commandment against [b]worshipping[/b] graven images.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 4 2005, 03:45 PM'] I kiss my mom. I don't worship her.
I kiss a picture of my deceased relative. I don't worship it.
I kiss a basketball before I shoot a free throw. I don't worship it.

Kissing something doesn't mean that we worship it.







[/quote]
[quote]There is only one God. Everyone else is human. Mary, the saints, are all human. We don't worship humans, we worship God alone. You must remember that you are on the outside looking in. It is easier to ask us if we are worshipping statues instead of automatically assuming that we do. If we truly are worshipping statues, then why would we not just say so?
[/quote]

Well I'm pleased to hear that Catholics do not feel or believe they are worshipping Mary - that's good; let's hope the Lord views it that way too.

Clearly I have been under a misconception about it.

Nevertheless the Scriptures are clear that graven images are a no no.

[quote]Why have a cross in your church? Why wear a cross around your neck?
[/quote]

Er....I don't. I don't go to church and I don't wear crosses. I am not ashamed of the Cross of Christ; but crosses are an offence to the Jews and an antisemitic symbol for them so I don't wear one.

[quote]

One doesn't have to pray to Mary to be a good Catholic, but I do know charismatic Catholics that do indeed have a devotion to our Blessed Mother.

The goal is to become closer to Christ. If asking for Mary's help brings you closer to Christ, then why not ask?
[/quote]

Good point, but I believe Mary is not omnipotent or omniscient, and further I'm afraid I believe she's sleeping the sleep of death awaiting the resurrection. So I have a problem there.

[quote]Please show me in scripture where it says that we cannot ask for the prayers of saints and those who are still living in Christ. The Bible I read tells me that we are all one, unified Body, under Jesus Christ. How can we be one body if most of us are dead?
[/quote]

Because God calls the things that are not as if they are. And the verse in Hebrews 11 which speaks about the saints of old:

"These are all heroes of faith, BUT THEY DID NOT RECEIVE WHAT WAS PROMISED, since God had made provision for us to have something better, [b]AND THEY WERE NOT TO REACH PERFECTION EXCEPT WITH US[/b]"

Except with us - they have NOT REACHED PERFECTION.

[quote]Can you show me "the sleep of death" in Scripture? Is this something other than Heaven or Hell?
[/quote]

I believe the Kingdom of God will be on earth when the Lord returns. However, until He reutrns.

There are loads of passages which refer to death as a sleep, but my favourite passage is this - though I notice in the Jerusalem Bible from which i'm quoting the word "sleep" has been changed - never mind; the meaning is the same:

"We can tell you from the Lord's own teaching, that any of us whoa re left alive until the Lord's coming WILL NOT HAVE ANY ADVANTAGE OVER THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ("are asleep" in KJV). At the trumpet of God, the voice of the archangel will call out the command and the Lord Himself will come down from heaven; THOSE WHO AHVE DIED IN CHRIST WILL BE THE FIRST TO RISE....." 1 Thess 4:13-17)

So the dead will have to rise in order to be made perfect, with those that are alive at His coming, surely?




Thanks for all your challenging replies everyone!! The Lord bless you all.

[thicke]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 03:57 PM'] It's only a parable - and then one that the Lord takes from the Jews own fables to drive home the point about resurrection: "If one ROSE FROM THE DEAD they still would not believe" (according to Edersheim anyhow and I consider him to be a good authority). Jesus did raise a man called Lazarus from the dead - literally - after He had told this parable. [/quote]
So.....You're saying that The Lord used a lie about the afterlife to teach the truth? That doesn't make sense.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 4 2005, 04:17 PM']
Furthermore, the commandment against graven images isn't a commandment against graven images...it's a commandment against [b]worshipping[/b] graven images. [/quote]
That's not what the passages I quoted earlier say: it just says not to make graven images. Period.

It says it three times.

However, if Catholics do not perceive the adoration of a statue of Mary as idolatry then who am I to judge?

God, the Judge of all the earth will do right.

However, for me with my conscience, it would be a sin. Perhpas I have a weak concsience?

The same applies to other idols; I wouldn't like a buddha in my home, or any of those hindu gods or such like. They are unclean.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='thicke' date='Apr 4 2005, 04:22 PM'] So.....You're saying that The Lord used a lie about the afterlife to teach the truth? That doesn't make sense. [/quote]
Not about the afterlife; He wasn't talking about the afterlife - He was making a point about covetousness; the parable was directed to the Scribes and Pharisees "who were covetous" and they derided our Lord.

The Lord spoke it against them as a testimony to their greed and self-righteousness "Ye are they which justfiy yourselves before men; but God knowether your heart: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God"

(Another reason why I prefer not to pray to saints - even if I thought they were alive - just because they are highly esteemed in the sight of men, in god's eyes they might be abominable)

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 05:23 PM'] That's not what the passages I quoted earlier say:  it just says not to make graven images.  Period.

It says it three times.

However, if Catholics do not perceive the adoration of a statue of Mary as idolatry then who am I to judge? 

God, the Judge of all the earth will do right.

However, for me with my conscience, it would be a sin.  Perhpas I have a weak concsience?

The same applies to other idols;  I wouldn't like a buddha in my home, or any of those hindu gods or such like.  They are unclean. [/quote]
Well, I would say that the matter is of context. After all, if it [b]is[/b] just a matter of making graven images, then we can extend the "kissing a photograph" argument to even having a photograph.

It seems to me that the context is clearly that God did not want them to have graven images for worship, especially considering the decorations on the Ark of the Covenant, the statues in the temple, etc.

It also would seem to me to be perfectly clear that the earliest Christians understood this, what with the carvings of pelicans, ducks, and salamanders on early tombs and in the catacombs.

But hey, maybe you're right...maybe God is against all graven images. Maybe all of us are doomed, then. It would seem that if this is the case, the Gates of Hell have most certainly prevailed, no matter what Church or denomination you belong to.

No...you're not right. That would make you an iconoclast.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Oh, not to mention the bronze serpent...

[dUSt]

Priscilla, thank you for remaining civil and continuing to dialogue with us. I believe that open dialogue between people of different faiths helps all of us grow closer to God.

I am looking forward to you answering the point I brought up about the Statue of Liberty and Lincoln Memorial. Are you against these things existing?

Also, if you don't mind, what type of a Christian are you? Are you associated with a denomination or do you have more of a "personal" religion, and rely on your own intellect to believe what you believe? I ask because I've never met a Christian that was opposed to displaying a cross before.

God bless.

[jezic]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 04:18 PM']

"We can tell you from the Lord's own teaching, that any of us whoa re left alive until the Lord's coming WILL NOT HAVE ANY ADVANTAGE OVER THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ("are asleep" in KJV). At the trumpet of God, the voice of the archangel will call out the command and the Lord Himself will come down from heaven; THOSE WHO AHVE DIED IN CHRIST WILL BE THE FIRST TO RISE....." 1 Thess 4:13-17)
[/quote]
quick question, anyone can answer it.

This passage, does it refer to the Jews that died before Christ or the people who died afterwards?

Question for Priscilla,

What about the miracles like the Transfiguration with dead people, how could they not be in Heaven and yet appear on earth alive?