MARIOLATRY

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Donna' date='Apr 15 2005, 03:24 AM']
OK, there's the great divide, it's why I think you're Jewish, too.

You don't believe Jesus is God.

You won't understannd what we're talking about until you do. [/quote]
No I am not Jewish. I am a Gentile: my father is a lapsed Catholic (and has always been a lapsed Catholic) and my mother isn't any denomination.

My ancestors are from Yorkshire, Wales and Ireland. To my knowledge I have no Jewish blood in me - but who knows? YOU might have Jewish blood in your ancestry - no-one really knows unless you do your family tree, and I'm not really into genealogies.

I do believe the the Lord Jesus is God: but He also shared our human nature.

And yes it is the big divide, because if you do not believe that Christ shared our human nautre then He didn't overcome: He cannot be our great High Priest who intercedes for us because He was "tempted in all points as we are".

By sharing our human nature He also destroyed the works of the devil: which is the flesh.

I haven't time just yet to read and address your previous long post: thank you for doing it: I will read it, but time is against me just now! More later. Thanks!

[Priscilla]

I've read you long post now Donna - thanks. I really admire your zeal and they way you've answered my questions. We'll have to agree to disagree on some points: but you've helped me to see Mary in a different light - a more positive one. But I still believe she's awaiting the resurrection, just like every other believer.

It's difficult to come back as your bits which are quotes won't show up. Yes - quoting tags can be a tricky business!!

JUst one point about the miracles: it was obvious that the water changed into wine BECAUSE THEY TASTED IT. The master of the wedding said "You have saved the best wine till last".

There was no doubt.

But as for Catholic miracles: I just wonder sometimes. Could someone be playing a trick? Anyone could make statues cry and hands bleed if they've got a bit of ingenuity!

[Brother Adam]

"But as for Catholic miracles: I just wonder sometimes. Could someone be playing a trick? Anyone could make statues cry and hands bleed if they've got a bit of ingenuity!"

Sure. I'm very skeptical about any miracles. I think it is healthy to be skeptical. But I'll admit I've seen things that are quite inexplainable too. No one is required to believe in private revelation or any alleged miracles.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 17 2005, 01:28 PM'] "But as for Catholic miracles: I just wonder sometimes. Could someone be playing a trick? Anyone could make statues cry and hands bleed if they've got a bit of ingenuity!"

Sure. I'm very skeptical about any miracles. I think it is healthy to be skeptical. But I'll admit I've seen things that are quite inexplainable too. No one is required to believe in private revelation or any alleged miracles. [/quote]
Oh - I didn't know that. So there's more freedom in the Catholic church about these things than I thought then? That's good. I'm pleased to hear that.

With your Creationist views and your skepticism about the miracles I'm quite impressed.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 17 2005, 02:05 PM'] But as for Catholic miracles: I just wonder sometimes. Could someone be playing a trick? Anyone could make statues cry and hands bleed if they've got a bit of ingenuity! [/quote]
There are undoubtedly some tricks and frauds, but there are also things which no one could pull as a hoax. The blood of St. Januarius, for instance, which liquifies (its normally dried blood) several times a year...almost like clockwork...the only 8 or so times it hasn't, some terrible disaster hit Italy shortly thereafter.

There are also whole books on Eucharistic miracles...scientifically verified pieces of living flesh...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 17 2005, 02:39 PM'] Oh - I didn't know that. So there's more freedom in the Catholic church about these things than I thought then? That's good. I'm pleased to hear that. [/quote]
Yes, we are not required to believe any extra-Biblical miracles or matters of private revelation. The Church pretty much says, "this is reliable" or "this won't cause scandal to believe" or "this will cause scandal and the faithful should steer clear," but never says, "you must believe this miracle or revelation."

This does not take away from our obligation to follow the Magisterial teachings, which are a separate matter.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 17 2005, 01:41 PM'] Yes, we are not required to believe any extra-Biblical miracles or matters of private revelation. The Church pretty much says, "this is reliable" or "this won't cause scandal to believe" or "this will cause scandal and the faithful should steer clear," but never says, "you must believe this miracle or revelation."

This does not take away from our obligation to follow the Magisterial teachings, which are a separate matter. [/quote]
I've never heard of "Magisterial teachings". What are they?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 18 2005, 09:20 AM'] I've never heard of "Magisterial teachings". What are they? [/quote]
Church doctrine

[musturde]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 17 2005, 01:39 PM']

With your Creationist views and your skepticism about the miracles I'm quite impressed. [/quote]
Actually, we're one of the few Churches that doesn't believe its neccisary to take the Genesis account literally.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 18 2005, 09:26 AM'] Church doctrine [/quote]
Magisterium is a fancy name for those that lead the Church as a collective whole.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='musturde' date='Apr 18 2005, 04:44 PM'] Actually, we're one of the few Churches that doesn't believe its neccisary to take the Genesis account literally. [/quote]
It was a personal post about Brother Adam. Not about the Catholic Church in general.

Out of all those who post on this forum, Brother Adam is the one I identify the most with.

Was he a prot once or something? If so, perhaps its that which I sense a kindred spirit in.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 18 2005, 05:00 PM'] Magisterium is a fancy name for those that lead the Church as a collective whole. [/quote]
Oh - so it's not Church doctrine then? I'm confused now.

Is the veneration of Mary and the saints "Magisterium" teaching - or not?

[Brother Adam]

Magisterium is defined as the living teaching office of teh Church, whose task it is to give as authentic interpretation of the word of God, whether in its written form (Sacred Scripture) or in the form of Tradition. the Magisterium ensures the Churche's fidelity to the teaching of the Apostles in matters of faith and morals. - Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The Communion of the Saints is doctrine, a doctrine which is proclaimed by the Magisterium, so it is binding for all Catholics to believe it.

Private devotions to Mary or to any of the saints is not required for a Catholic to take part of, just as no Catholic must believe in any private revelation. Only those doctrines and dogmas which have been declared and set forth by the Church must be believed.

Do you have a Catechism of the Catholic Church? I'd be happy to send you one free of charge along with a resource cd with a whole ton of resources. I was raised Lutheran and spent many years as a fundamental Baptist to answer your question. I'm here to answer any questions you have if you ever want to email me any of them as I am not always on the debate table.

At times I do not agree with even my Catholic brothers and sisters as even now I am on a constant search for truth. It is good to know though that I am a full member of the bride of Christ, and fully consent to the teachings of the Church.

[Donna]

Hi, Priscilla.

Hard to keep up w/ you, and more difficult to keep up w/ myself, hence such a long time between my posts!

My apologies, if I assumed something, and am wrong. When I said I think you're Jewish, I did not mean ethnically, but as far as beliefs (more or less). Way back in this thread I somehow got the impression you thought The Father was greatest, and therefore, Jesus inferior to Him. And the way you worded the post about Jesus taking on human nature (Page 7), also made me think the same. I am still curious about this, and am wondering, do you consider the New Testament to be as valid/inerrant (no error) as the Old?

Anyway: no one can truly be Catholic if they don't believe Jesus had (and has!) a human nature...[i]like us in all things but sin.[/i] If you keep being around Catholic literature, you'll see that the Incarnation is a HUGE deal for Catholics. In fact, John 1, like the first 17 or so verses, which culminates in the Incarnation - [b]"And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us...", [/b]is actually an exorcism-ish prayer, and is called [i]The Last Gospel[/i] At the precise part "The Word was made flesh", all genuflect...it is this "last gospel" which is recited after every low mass (in the Latin Rite).

As a side note, I think it is this fact which makes for some of the varied devotion to Our Lord. People can glom onto whatever point in time they wish w/ Jesus, like they can feel closest to Him as a tiny baby...or a toddler, pre-schooler, young child....maybe some folks feel the greatest affinity to the teen-age Jesus, the young man, or the flower of manhood Lord.

As far as miracles, you maybe miss the point. Those at Cana could well have said, if they were modern thinkers, that their sense of taste could not be trusted, nor their reason: HOW can they KNOW the water was water, the wine was wine? [i]That's[/i] the tack they could've taken. It's a way to not aknowledge the truth of the miracle.

There are certainly false apparitions, like Medjgorie, etc; It's good to be prudent, even skeptical. Our Lord knows you don't want to be duped - NOR an adulterous harlot. The point is, there's a difference between prudence, and not being willing to consider, or believe no matter what the evidence. I suspect you haven't yet seen much of this kind of evidence (nor had time to look for it, busy poster that you are!) But it will be important, at some point. Miracles are a proof of the veracity of what the Catholic Church claims.

I'm sure Our Lord loves a good skeptic; ask away every question, [i]if [/i]we really want to consider or hear the answers.

Thanks for reading my post about Our Lady.

[scardella]

Sorry, but last I checked, Medjugorje was not condemned, just not approved at this point in time. It's my understanding that there's one person who's still getting messages from Our Lady and it cannot be approved until that stops.

I agree with your point though.