MARIOLATRY

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 14 2005, 02:29 PM']

Do you ever kneel in front of your Bible when you read it? Do you kiss pictures of loved ones? I don't understand how this is any different. It's certainly not worship. If the only thing keeping you back is a nagging feeling that maybe it's wrong, then I would say you may just have scrupulosity.

[/quote]
No. I do not kiss photos either.


"Scrupulosity" !!! what a lovely word!! I've never come across THAT one before! .....Yes you could be right: but what's wrong about being scrupulous where God's commandments are concerned?

[quote]God is merciful, but I sense that there is something else.  You would mention no need for God's mercy in this unless you thought that maybe we were right.  Many people have a hard time praying the rosary and such.  I'm very scrupulous and Satan tells me constantly that I'm worshipping Mary when I pray the rosary, but I know that it's not worship...that's just him trying to get me to stop.

[/quote]
Well I believe HaSatan is totally under God's control: just look at the book of Job - Satan couldn't lift his little finger against Job without God's permission. If Satan's giving you a hard time, maybe it's because God wants to teach you something.

Anyhow, as an Ex-Christadelphian I still adhere to my Christadelphian beliefs about Satan (though slightly modified because they miss one or two points).

[quote]I recommend you study a little bit on St. Louis de Montfort, if for nothing more than to understand Catholicism a bit better.

[/quote]
Never heard of him. Is it available on-line?

Edited April 14, 2005 by Priscilla

[Priscilla]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Apr 14 2005, 03:21 PM']
Kneeling down is not worship. It is a sign of honor for kings or queens for instance. In Genesis 27 Issac prophecies that all of Israel will bow down before Jacob.

[/quote]
Yes but they were all live, real people.

I would be happy to curtsey for the Queen for example if I was to come into her presence: Scripture says to honour the king and show honour to whom honour is due.

But when someone dies, then they're dead and that's that. It's OK to hold them in your heart and memory: but to make a statue of them and pray to them I believe is wrong.

It's OK to ask LIVING Christians to pray for me/us: but in the grave, there is no remembrance. The dead can't pray. They're dead.

None of the Old Testament saints ever prayed to dead saints: even the great Elisha never ever prayed to his beloved saint Elijah (and he was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven).

Prayer should only ever be to the Lord Jesus, or to the Father through the Lord Jesus according to my understanding of Scripture.

But each to his own I guess. I'm sure the Lord doesn't mind: though maybe He does, I don't know. He's a jealous God, and if we give our affections, prayers and venerations to anyone other than Him then I think it's sticky ground.

But I'm thinking about what you all say anyhow.

[thessalonian]

Priscilla

Please take a moment and read my post above. Bowing down is not always worship or idolatry as your post implies.

[scardella]

FYI (off topic again!)
Being scrupulous (in the moral sense) is thinking something a sin when it is, in fact, not a sin. Oftentimes it seems to be an overreaction against a past or enviroment that is morally loose.

[philothea]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 03:56 PM'] "Scrupulosity" !!! what a lovely word!! I've never come across THAT one before! .....Yes you could be right: but what's wrong about being scrupulous where God's commandments are concerned?
[/quote]
(weep)

You know you've gone horribly wrong when you wonder if it's okay to wash your hands with warm water, or if that's too much self-indulgence and you must always use cold.



Scruples (the wrong kind) stink.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 04:56 PM'] No.  I do not kiss photos either.


"Scrupulosity"  !!! what a lovely word!! I've never come across THAT one before!  .....Yes you could be right:  but what's wrong about being scrupulous where God's commandments are concerned? [/quote]
I don't understand. The fact is that if the object of affection is the one represented in the picture, then your kiss, or the love in it, is not for the picture, but for the person.

As for scrupulosity, we're talking about a mental disorder here. I have it...it's related to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and it's the point where you are so afraid of messing up that you won't do anything that could even remotely be taken badly...and in the meantime, you miss out on a lot of good things.

[quote]Well I believe HaSatan is totally under God's control:  just look at the book of Job - Satan couldn't lift his little finger against Job without God's permission.  If Satan's giving you a hard time, maybe it's because God wants to teach you something.[/quote]

God allows Satan to do things...that does not mean that God does those things.

[quote]Anyhow, as an Ex-Christadelphian I still adhere to my Christadelphian beliefs about Satan (though slightly modified because they miss one or two points).[/quote]

I actually don't know what that is.

[quote]Never heard of him.  Is it available on-line?[/quote]

Probably.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Apr 14 2005, 04:11 PM'] Priscilla

Please take a moment and read my post above. Bowing down is not always worship or idolatry as your post implies. [/quote]
True - but bowing to dead people to me is just pure unctiousness.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='scardella' date='Apr 14 2005, 04:12 PM'] FYI (off topic again!)
Being scrupulous (in the moral sense) is thinking something a sin when it is, in fact, not a sin. Oftentimes it seems to be an overreaction against a past or enviroment that is morally loose. [/quote]
Well it's not scrupulosity in my case here then. I'm not overreacting to any past or environment.

I agree: some people do overreact. For example people who have say been into witchcraft might overreact and be very scrupulous about not reading Harry Potter (which actually I'm not too keen on either though I've never been into witchcraft).

Also, I like that Scripture "to the pure all things are pure" - so to a Catholic who has been brought up to view these things as pure then maybe they are pure.

But for me personally, because of the Scriptures which forbid pictures and graven images, these Scriptures have sensitised my conscience so that I consider it to be sin to venerate Mary and the "Saints"

[Priscilla]

[quote name='philothea' date='Apr 14 2005, 04:15 PM'] (weep)

You know you've gone horribly wrong when you wonder if it's okay to wash your hands with warm water, or if that's too much self-indulgence and you must always use cold.



Scruples (the wrong kind) stink. [/quote]
I agree. I get the drift better now.

Perhaps 'diligence' is a better word. I am endeavouring to be diligent about the Scriptures which forbid graven images and pictures.

I don't think that is a sin.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 14 2005, 04:17 PM'] I don't understand. The fact is that if the object of affection is the one represented in the picture, then your kiss, or the love in it, is not for the picture, but for the person.

As for scrupulosity, we're talking about a mental disorder here. I have it...it's related to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and it's the point where you are so afraid of messing up that you won't do anything that could even remotely be taken badly...and in the meantime, you miss out on a lot of good things.



. [/quote]
Yes I understand the meaning of it better now. I'd never really come across the word "scrupulosity" before.

You could be right - yet we're told by our Lord that our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees if we want to get into the Kingdom, and there's no way they would have paid homage to a picture or graven image.

But if Catholics are at peace doing it, then who am I to judge? It's just that its not for me, and would be a stumbling block if I became a Catholic. Never mind.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 05:42 PM'] You could be right - yet we're told by our Lord that our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees if we want to get into the Kingdom, and there's no way they would have paid homage to a picture or graven image. [/quote]
The pharisees also wouldn't worship Jesus. Perhaps their [i]not[/i] doing something they should is what's unholy...

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 04:29 PM'] True - but bowing to dead people to me is just pure unctiousness. [/quote]
Let me let you in on a little secret. They're not dead. God is not the God of the dead but of the living.

[jezic]

[quote] Let me let you in on a little secret. They're not dead. God is not the God of the dead but of the living.[/quote]

[Donna]

[quote]QUOTE 

Could the Son of God really be associated in any way - the Sinless One come to take away ALL sins of the world- with sin in His very flesh, in taking on the sinful flesh of His mother? 



This is a very important point: I believe that Christ did take on human nature from His mother - yet He was without sin. He could not have overcome sin and death without doing it in the weakness of human flesh.

To say that Christ did not have sinful nature is to say that He was somehow different from us - He shared our nature: otherwise there would be no hope for the world if He was of some different nature?[/quote]

You misunderstand me here. What I'm saying is that it would be impossible for the Sinless One to take corrupted -fallen- flesh. It would be like purporting that God could lie - or flatter (to do something wrong in order to attain a better end).

He could in no way be in His person, or in His natures, intimately associated with sin. His Precious blood -the instrument by which the sins of the whole world are kaput- could never have touched sin. Her flesh was immaculate.

[quote]We don't need any 'Mediatrix of all graces'. The salutation from the Angel Gabriel in fact shows that favour/grace was BESTOWED upon her. It was not something she held inherently.[/quote]


Never in Catholic doctrine ever will it be said that Mary was "inherently" graced, as if she didn't need grace. Of [i]course[/i] God bestowed it upon her! That's why we love and venerate her so; because He who is holy [i]has done great things to her, [/i]and holy is His name. But [b]He[/b] done 'em, not a Pope, nor any human person.

Genesis: God said to the serpent: Because you have done this, I will put emnities between thee and the woman...she shall crush your head. What is "emnity" if not "opposite"? It is that passage which explains Mary being immaculate. Maybe your argument is really with God. "[i]I [/i]will put emnities", the Scriptures say.

[quote]I don't like the word Trinity. though I believe that the Lord Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God - but not three Gods: but One. The word "trinity" It is unbiblical and reduces God. There are the seven Spirits of God, and the "Elohim" ("mighty ones"). The doctrine of the trinity is a reactionary doctrine against blasphemers who were unitarian or believed Jesus to be a good man or something like that.[/quote]

Catholics believe there is one God in three persons. That the Trinity explains this, is pregnant in the bible. There are not seven Spirits of God, if you mean 7 spirits comprising God. Catholicism would say there are seven spirits who stand at the throne of God (scholars, am I remembering rightly that Archangel Raphael identified himself as one of the 7 in the book of Tobit?).

Ppl don't have a problem with many (lowercase) "trinities"...where does "3D" come from but nature: we live in a tri-dimensional world. Electricity: heat, motion, light. That doesn't mean there are three electricites, but one. There's three's everywhere, it's God's little letters to us in nature, pointing back to the Author.

[color=red]***OK, the rest of this post is inverted: that is, the quoted parts are me answering Priscilla. I give up; me and the quote thang is a bummer***[/color]

[/quote]I am a montheist so I do not believe in a separate deity of supernatural evil (ie: the devil as a supernatural evil being). [quote]

Neither do Catholics believe in a separate [i]deity[/i] of any sort. Satan is not the opposite of God, but an angelic person, a creature of His. How you cannot believe the devil "prowleth about like a lion, seeking whom to devour (Peter), and say you read the Bible is a mysetery to me.

[/quote]How do I know they're not fake?[quote]

How did Peter and the rest know that the water had been turned to wine? It ain't rocket science. This is very sad. Mark this, everyone, for this is what post modern thought does to us all, and it's in the very air that we breathe. It was perfectly reasonable for Peter to make the connection that the water had changed to wine - that a miracle had occured. But the deterioration of common sense and good will -or scrupulosity, OR the influence of the evil one, or A through D, can get us to a state where we wouldn't recongnize a miracle if it bit us in the face.

Suppose those at Cana said, "How can I know that water is water? How do I know that wine is wine? I can't know..." God made human reason, and He expects us to use it. It too, is one of his gifts. Faith and reason cannot be incompatible.

[/quote]That's what all churches say. How do I know what is truth? One church says "this is turth" another says "No, this is truth" yet another says "No, this is truth".

I no longer know what is truth - except the Lord Jesus: He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I have to cling to that, or there's nothing.[quote]

Most churches I know of these days, say go where you're comfy.

What non-Catholics don't seem to understand is that to live Catholic is to be permeated with Jesus, who is the way, the truth and the life. But when the Good Samaritan cared for the poor wretch who fell among robbers, he didn't hand him a book (as sacred as the Scriptures are) and say, "be fed, be cared for". The Good Samaritan brought him to the inn (the Church) and got him a doctor (Pontiff) and paid the price of his care!

But I was quoting from 2 Thess. ..."because they receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved, therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe a lie..." Again, God will do this, if we don't pray/try/to recive the love of the truth. We needn't be concerned about the "how" of finding the truth. God will show us, once we are willing to love the truth.

This is not as easy as it sounds.

[quote]She would want all the glory to go to her Son: when men honour the Son, then the Father is honoured.[/quote]

And [i]"Where she is queen He is King".[/i]

Where did the Magi find the Lord? With His mother.

Maybe it's not OK then, to need one's husband? He's only a creature. Maybe not OK to love the sunset, the trees, to need beauty, because the sun and moon and nature is the creature, and loving them takes glory away from God.

Of course she wants all the glory to go to her Son, because she's the most humble human person ever. She only bears Jesus, that's all she does, and that's why she's the Mediatrix of all graces: Because Jesus - aka "All Graces" - came through her.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Donna

[Donna]

[quote]This is a very important point: I believe that Christ did take on human nature from His mother - yet He was without sin. He could not have overcome sin and death without doing it in the weakness of human flesh.

To say that Christ did not have sinful nature is to say that He was somehow different from us - He shared our nature: otherwise there would be no hope for the world if He was of some different nature?[/quote]

OK, there's the great divide, it's why I think you're Jewish, too.

You don't believe Jesus is God.

You won't understannd what we're talking about until you do.